Answering Christianity Research Center

Brother Dawud,
So you and I agree that brother Osama’s assertion that
sum of chapters, = sum of odd
sum of verses, = sum of evens
constitutes a miracle is false.

We agree that it is trivial for a human being to construct such an arrangement, which disqualifies Osama’s published rationale for a “scientific miracle”.

Now, you have added 2 criteria that you claim make this arrangement a true miracle
1.   That the number of even sums equals the odd sums
2.   That the ratio as described above is the golden ratio, which is necessarily a miracle.

Sorry, brother Dawud, you are as mistaken as Osama in your assertion of the necessity of a miracle to explain these items.

First, getting the even sums to match the odd sums is trivial.  There is no upper bound on the number of such solutions.  I could list them for you as fast as I can write.  But I will give you just one

Ch      Vs      Ev      Odd
1      23      24      
2      7             9
3      47      50      
4      7             11
5      27      32      
6      5             11
7      2             9
8      66      74      
9      6             15
10      2      12      
                     
Sum      Sum      Sum      Sum
55      192      192      55


As for your second assertion it is false on several counts.

First, you have falsely stated the golden ratio.  The golden ratio does not equal 7905/4885.  The golden ratio equals  (1 + sqrt(5))/2.
1.6182190378710337768… = 7905/4885
1.6180339887498948482...  = (1 + sqrt(5))/2
Surly the all knowing creator of the universe who knows every subatomic detail of the entire universe would know these numbers are not equal!

Your assertion is also false because it is easily explained by reverse cherry picking.  If the ratio had turned out to be
2.718
you may as well have said “ah ha!!!  The base of natural logarithms!!!”
And why 7905/4885?  Why not 4885/7905?  Your choice is arbitrary and merely a reverse engineered cherry picking.
There are endless ratios and numbers in nature and mathematics.  There are endless ways to count chapters and verses and letters in the Qur’an.  Eventually you can find a match to 3 decimal places.  No miracle needed.

Sorry brothers Dawud and Osama, your arguments for the necessity of a miracle in this case are nonsense, and the demonstration of their falsehood is trivial.

Peace to you both

Brother Dawud,
So you and I agree that brother Osama’s assertion that
sum of chapters, = sum of odd
sum of verses, = sum of evens
constitutes a miracle is false

First, you have falsely stated the golden ratio.  The golden ratio does not equal 7905/4885.  The golden ratio equals  (1 + sqrt(5))/2.
1.6182190378710337768… = 7905/4885
1.6180339887498948482...  = (1 + sqrt(5))/2
Surly the all knowing creator of the universe who knows every subatomic detail of the entire universe would know these numbers are not equal!

Brother Dawud,
You have given me an very easy task.

"If you Think it is easy to do, let make an experiment, use 10 first chapter, and use what ever verse number to specific chapter as you wish, and make it so that

sum of chapters, = sum of odd
sum of verses, = sum of evens

just do it with 10 chapters if you can"

Ch   Vs   Ev   Odd
1   23   24   
2   36   38   
3   47   50   
4   23      27
5   27   32   
6   62   68   
7    2       9
8   66   74   
9   10      19
10    2   12   
         
Sum   Sum   Sum   Sum
55   298   298   55

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an.  All asserted numerological "miracles" are the result of
1. Intentional human construction
2. Chance
3. Reverse association of numerical relationships by cherry picking

As'salamu Alaikum brother Dawud

Mr. Habal,
I see clearly that you are prone to make assumptions when you do not have evidence.

Actually, the books of Moses contain even more instructions to wretched actions than the Qur'an.  Unfortunately for the indigenous people of what we now call Palestine or Israel those instructions were genocide against them.  Fortunately for the rest of the world, the explicit incitement to murder made by Moses was limited to that relatively small geographical area.

Your post is little more than a disjointed rant, filled with anger and accusations based on assumptions for which you have no evidence beyond what you can "smell" through your computer.

The "miracle" I have thoroughly debunked is that life is made from water.

You wish to bring up that the Qur'an also says that man was made from mud.  That is also scientifically false.  Science tells us that human beings evolved from lower primates, not mud.

You seek to discount the fact and theory of evolution by citing a tiny percentage of individuals in the field who have in fact used fraud to further their own agenda, likely fame and wealth.  That is one of the great things about science.  It is other scientists who expose false claims through the scientific method.

Indeed, the Qur'an is not a science book and there are no scientific miracles in it.  There are a number of very crude and obvious observations in it that are so apparent to any careful observer that they have some alignment with reality if interpreted in the broadest sense, which in no way qualifies such statements as miracles.

Peace Mr. Habal

Science tells us that human beings evolved from lower primates, not mud.

Brother Dawud,
No, there is no leech stage to human development.

"what is this then?" you ask.
Answer, a human embryo.

Yes, I realize that at that point in development there is a very crude resemblance between a leech and a human embryo.

This resembles a leech
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5Oh_aR1WQ9Q/U9E5p18kanI/AAAAAAAASOw/6gLuAevyh20/s1600/image_2+-+WM.jpeg

This also resembles a leech
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/bethanyd.jpg

It is a simple observational fact that human beings resemble leeches in their early development. 

All that is needed to observe this fact is a miscarriage.

Miscarriages were, unfortunately, common.

There is no scientific miracle in describing the products of a miscarriage as a leech, or a clot, or a chewed thing.  Those are just crude descriptions of the obvious.

Peace Bro

No, there is no leech stage to human development.

This resembles a leech
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5Oh_aR1WQ9Q/U9E5p18kanI/AAAAAAAASOw/6gLuAevyh20/s1600/image_2+-+WM.jpeg

This also resembles a leech
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/bethanyd.jpg

As'salamu Alaikum brother Osama,
In any language there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.  I do not rely on one translator, rather I go to corpus.quran, and if you have additional translations I am always interested in contrasting your translation with that of established and often referenced authors.

In any language brother Hamza has thoroughly refuted explicitly several of your asserted scientific miracles.  You have offered no specific rebuttals to our refutations, only links that repeat your erroneous assertions. He has not explicitly addressed all of them but I will begin to do so myself below.

Yes, I would be interested in the PhDs and others you mention.  What are their names?

I have replicated one of your asserted miracles.  It took me about an hour.

Below are 114 numbers representing the number of verses in 114 chapters of a book.
105,59,48,59,20,49,29,74,28,4,22,4,7,63,18,92,13,7,12,104,8,92,74,44,86,2,85,22,19,94,18,97,18,54,53,40,72,26,42,98,13,4,26,96,74,12,99,35,71,93,33,57,103,32,46,75,98,4,99,9,14,52,44,87,46,81,93,2,101,17,17,29,30,87,40,62,40,100,104,54,85,27,41,83,70,98,30,35,65,105,64,8,96,66,69,4,47,65,72,18,31,48,64,13,100,21,46,3,63,11,103,103,98,46

The sum of these 114 numbers is 5938.
The sum of 114 verse numbers is 6555, as you have often cited.
Entering the 114 verse count number into your numerology algorithm yields a sum of even numbers equal to 5938, and the sum of the odd numbers equal to 6555.

I, an ordinary man, intentionally constructed this “numerical miracle”.  Therefore, an ordinary 7th century man was capable of doing the same. 

It was all good fun and I learned a few fascinating aspects of this numerological illusion, and in the spirit of Randy, I will reveal my secrets. 

First the sum of the chapter numbers and the verse numbers must always equal the sum of the even numbers and the odd numbers.  This is because the whole numerological algorithm is just an example of the associative property and the commutative property of addition.  The algorithm adds a set of numbers using one set of associations, then adds that same set of numbers a second time using a different set of associations.  Since association and commutation does not change the sum in addition of positive numbers the answers must always match no matter what the verse lengths are.

But this numerology lays out additional criteria.  The individual sums must always match.  Now, since 6555 is an odd number the chapter number total must match the odd number total, because a sum of even numbers is always an even number.

Likewise, the verse length total must be an even number, because it must match the total of even numbers, which is always even.

So, all I had to do was get the odd number total to match the fixed value of 6555. This was quickly and easily done by my brain.  For example, if the total of the odd numbers was 121 too low, all I had to do was look for an even number of 122.  I then subtracted 1 from the verse length on that row so the total would now be 121 on that row.  The even/odd test automatically moved the number 122 out of the even number column and into the odd number column as 121.

This movement caused the odd number total to rise to exactly 6555.  By necessity of the algorithmic structure the even number total automatically then matched the verse count total and…presto…I created a “numerical miracle”.

In real life all the scribe would have had to do is combine 2 adjacent verses in the chapter into a single verse, and he would have achieved the exact same effect.

Brother Osama, the time has come for an intellectual awakening for you.  I warmly invite you to the realm of rationality and reason.  I urge you to find the intellectual courage to realize the enormity of your errors, and make a change that cleanses your mind of your irrational belief in scientific miracles in the Qur’an.

I, for one, will not be gloating when you do, rather, warmly welcoming you into the light of reason.

Peace Bro

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Dawud,

Please write your actual writings in text and not in images.  Just like your answers to me in your recent posts.  This would:

1-  Allow for your writings to be picked up by search engines.

2-  Allow for them to be searchable by the users.

3-  Allows the user to copy and paste and verify.

Now for actual pictures like the Leech, for example, then yes, please do post them as pictures.  But please make your text in actual writings and not images.  If I have objections or find errors, then I'll just directly respond to you.  This way we can interact and reach to the Truth, insha'Allah.

May Allah Almighty bless you, akhi.  Ameen.  Feel free to express your thoughts as you wish.  I won't interfere.  I will interact with replies if needed, insha'Allah.

Take care akhi, and keep up the great work!
Osama Abdallah