Author Topic: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology  (Read 19681 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« on: August 03, 2013, 03:23:23 PM »
Quran 23:14 .... and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; the

The problem is that its not bones. It is hyaline cartilage, and this cartilage is the same type of cartilage that is in the nose and joints. Ossification has not occurred yet and is incomplete.

They say that the Arabic term for cartilage, ghurdoof should have been used instead of idhaam.

Help with this please.

Offline ThatMuslimGuy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 03:41:37 PM »
Asalamualaikum,

This is answrred on page 35-36 of this paper:

http://www.iera.org.uk/research4_4.html

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 04:46:53 PM »
Asalamualaikum,

This is answrred on page 35-36 of this paper:

http://www.iera.org.uk/research4_4.html

Hello brother yes it is, but this author makes a strong point:

http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.com/2012/08/6-bones-idhaam.html


"Hamza responds by stating that the Arabic term for cartilage, “ghurdoof” refers to “a type of cartilage that is not a precursor to bones.” Yet, Hamza fails to provide any source for the claim that “ghurdoof” is not equivalent to the word cartilage whether it is a precursor to bone or not. Neither are there any sources provided by Hamza for his claim that permanent cartilage and the cartilaginous model of bones are different types.

"Thus, the permanent cartilage and the cartilaginous model of bones are made from the same kind of cartilage i.e. hyaline cartilage. Regardless, the definition he quotes from Lane’s lexicon defines “ghurdoof” as “any soft bone”. The following is the entry for “ghurdoof” provided by Lane’s lexicon;[xii]"

Hamza is under the impression that cartilage is a “form” of the bone. This is incorrect as cartilage and bone are distinct connective tissues.

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 05:47:11 AM »
I have an explanation that may work:

The Quranic usage of 'bone' is much better than 'cartilage' because at the stage mentioned there are osteoblasts (which are bone cells) and they are contained within the cartilage. This makes the cartilage with the osteoblasts different from the cartilage without (the one in joints). So 'bone' in the Quran is trying to show you that it is different from the cartilage. This 'bone' has bone cells-Osteoblasts that will ossify.

But the problem with that is that BOTH cartilage in joints and embryonic cartilage contain the same cells-Chondroblasts and chondrocytes. So the Arabic word for cartilage seems to be a better word.

But, i would like a second opinion.

Does anybody have a refutation to that article I posted in my previous post? There are other points I am finding difficulty with.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 03:13:48 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline ThatMuslimGuy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 02:59:34 PM »
AsalamuAlaikum.

Im away from the pc at the moment. I will respond when im not on my phone.

Offline abdullah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 03:33:31 PM »
Assalamualykum
I think I have an explanation that might work, the word "idhamm" means any bone, while "ghurdoof" means any soft bone. So the word idhamm still encompasses the meaning of ghurdoof, its just that ghurdoof is more specific. Well, one might say why doesn't the Qur'an say ghurdoof, the more specific term. I would reply with
1. The Qur'an is not a science book
2. The companions of the prophet, and the later generations understood ghurdoof to mean only the bones that are in the nose and ear therefore it would have been very confusing to them.
3. Ghurdoof was specifically meant for the ears and nose, so it wouldn't have been accurate for types of bones in the embryo because the bones in tge embryo contain osteoblasts while bones in the nose and ear do not.
Hope that helps. Let me know if yall agree or disagree with my explanation.

Offline abdullah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 03:52:56 PM »
Assalamualykum
Brother Osama do you think you can help us out with this one

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 10:32:34 PM »
Assalamualykum
I think I have an explanation that might work, the word "idhamm" means any bone, while "ghurdoof" means any soft bone. So the word idhamm still encompasses the meaning of ghurdoof, its just that ghurdoof is more specific. Well, one might say why doesn't the Qur'an say ghurdoof, the more specific term. I would reply with
1. The Qur'an is not a science book
2. The companions of the prophet, and the later generations understood ghurdoof to mean only the bones that are in the nose and ear therefore it would have been very confusing to them.
3. Ghurdoof was specifically meant for the ears and nose, so it wouldn't have been accurate for types of bones in the embryo because the bones in tge embryo contain osteoblasts while bones in the nose and ear do not.
Hope that helps. Let me know if yall agree or disagree with my explanation.

Thank you brother, I agree: But the Quran could have just said Ghurdoof and not mentioned bones at all. Or just say he made Ghurdoof and then Idham after.

The thing is osteoblasts DO exist in the hyaline cartilage before ossification and DOESN'T exist in 'ghurdoof' or hyaline cartilage in an adult. The reason why I say osteoblasts exist int he hyaline cartilage model of bone is because they secrete things which causes the primary ossification center to form.


I would like more info in the Arabic too. Bones in the nose contain chondrocytes and the early embryo cartilage also contains chodrocytes. Its probably a problem with the Arabic.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 10:53:37 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline abdullah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2013, 03:38:22 AM »
Assalamualykum, idk man but I think brother Osama can elaborate on the issue as I have little knowledge in classical Arabic. Btw I think it's more of a linguistic issue rather than a scientific issue. If idham can be shown to include ghurdoof than the issue can be easily resolved. Also if that's the case then I believe Allah chose idham rather than ghurdoof so that earlier generations wouldn't be confused.
Also, I think brother Osama should write an article on this issue if he has the time.

Offline ThatMuslimGuy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2013, 08:41:49 AM »
AsalamuAlaikum,

The Claim

Another  contention from commentators is that at this stage there are no real bones. It is argued that the apparent bones are mere cartilage as ossification is incomplete and, therefore, the Qur’an is inaccurate. They further assert that the Arabic term for cartilage, ghurdoofshould have been used instead of  ᶜidhaam.

Although a valid contention is it misplaced for the following reasons:

1. The Arabic word for cartilage refers to a type of cartilage that is not a precursor to bones, but rather remains as flexible connective tissue. The skeptic replied by saying Hamza provides no evidence for this claim. But he does. He quotes Lanes Arabic lexicon which defined it as any soft bone like the bone in the Nose. The Nose only ever remains a flexible connective tissue. So Hamza's statement is correct.

2.  The  word  ᶜidhaam encompasses the cartilaginous form of the bones as the skeletal framework is put in place. For me this is the biggest point is that Idhaam encompasses the cartilaginous bone.

3. The use of the word  ᶜidhaam is more accurate because it also carries the meaning of  “bone, but properly applied to the bones of the hands and feet, or of the arms and legs, of an animal, upon which is the flesh.” Since flesh - in other words muscles and tendons - is subsequently formed around the limb bones of the developing human, the use of the word  ᶜidhaam is more apt as it encompasses the description of limb bones that have flesh upon them.

4. The process of ossification begins by the 8th week,and continues on after birth. The ossification process completes around puberty. As Barry Mitchell and Ram Sharma explain. From this perspective, it would be a medical absurdity to assume newborns or young teenagers do not have bones simply because they require ossification, especially  since ossification completes at the end of the growth-spurt of puberty.

5. The biggest point is for me is the connotations of the word ᶜidhaam allow for an all-encompassing interpretation because the “cartilaginous models of the various bones”are included in its meaning.

6. The Quran is not a science book.

7. Ghurdoof, as was defined by lanes Arabic Lexicon, specifically refers to the cartilage of the Nose or Ears so it would be innacurate to use it when describing the Embryo. Also if Allah did use this it would be confusing for the Companions and later generations as they understood this word to refer to only the bones in the Nose and Ear.

So in my eyes Ghurdoof would be erroneous if it was used. Due to it refering to the bone in the Nose and Ear which is nothing like the Cartilage in the Embryo and would be confusing to Arabic speakers. So Allah used the word Idhaam which encompasses this type of soft Bone. Also Idhaam is better as it refers to the bones of the Limbs, which begin to develop at this stage, unlike Ghurdoof which refers to soft bone in the Nose and Ear. Alhamdulillah that Allah picked this word. Anyways hope this helps in sha Allah brother Osama can write something.

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2013, 09:58:49 PM »
AsalamuAlaikum,

The Claim

Another  contention from commentators is that at this stage there are no real bones. It is argued that the apparent bones are mere cartilage as ossification is incomplete and, therefore, the Qur’an is inaccurate. They further assert that the Arabic term for cartilage, ghurdoofshould have been used instead of  ᶜidhaam.

Although a valid contention is it misplaced for the following reasons:

1. The Arabic word for cartilage refers to a type of cartilage that is not a precursor to bones, but rather remains as flexible connective tissue. The skeptic replied by saying Hamza provides no evidence for this claim. But he does. He quotes Lanes Arabic lexicon which defined it as any soft bone like the bone in the Nose. The Nose only ever remains a flexible connective tissue. So Hamza's statement is correct.

2.  The  word  ᶜidhaam encompasses the cartilaginous form of the bones as the skeletal framework is put in place. For me this is the biggest point is that Idhaam encompasses the cartilaginous bone.

3. The use of the word  ᶜidhaam is more accurate because it also carries the meaning of  “bone, but properly applied to the bones of the hands and feet, or of the arms and legs, of an animal, upon which is the flesh.” Since flesh - in other words muscles and tendons - is subsequently formed around the limb bones of the developing human, the use of the word  ᶜidhaam is more apt as it encompasses the description of limb bones that have flesh upon them.

4. The process of ossification begins by the 8th week,and continues on after birth. The ossification process completes around puberty. As Barry Mitchell and Ram Sharma explain. From this perspective, it would be a medical absurdity to assume newborns or young teenagers do not have bones simply because they require ossification, especially  since ossification completes at the end of the growth-spurt of puberty.

5. The biggest point is for me is the connotations of the word ᶜidhaam allow for an all-encompassing interpretation because the “cartilaginous models of the various bones”are included in its meaning.

6. The Quran is not a science book.

7. Ghurdoof, as was defined by lanes Arabic Lexicon, specifically refers to the cartilage of the Nose or Ears so it would be innacurate to use it when describing the Embryo. Also if Allah did use this it would be confusing for the Companions and later generations as they understood this word to refer to only the bones in the Nose and Ear.

So in my eyes Ghurdoof would be erroneous if it was used. Due to it refering to the bone in the Nose and Ear which is nothing like the Cartilage in the Embryo and would be confusing to Arabic speakers. So Allah used the word Idhaam which encompasses this type of soft Bone. Also Idhaam is better as it refers to the bones of the Limbs, which begin to develop at this stage, unlike Ghurdoof which refers to soft bone in the Nose and Ear. Alhamdulillah that Allah picked this word. Anyways hope this helps in sha Allah brother Osama can write something.

Thank you very much brother for that detailed response!

 But Ghurdoof means any soft bone as hamza states but it is a applied to the nose and ear, right?

Also, do you have a source that Idhaam encompasses this type of soft bone?  Because this absolutely ends the difficulty :)
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 10:00:40 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline ThatMuslimGuy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2013, 04:49:59 PM »
Sorry brother just checked the forum. I will reply when im on p.c.

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2013, 06:05:08 PM »
Sorry brother just checked the forum. I will reply when im on p.c.

Thank you so much with your help on this so far, brother!

May Allah bless you and your family and Eid Mubarak!

Offline QuranSearchCom

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Islam is the Divine Truth!
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2013, 03:32:42 PM »
Assalamualykum, idk man but I think brother Osama can elaborate on the issue as I have little knowledge in classical Arabic. Btw I think it's more of a linguistic issue rather than a scientific issue. If idham can be shown to include ghurdoof than the issue can be easily resolved. Also if that's the case then I believe Allah chose idham rather than ghurdoof so that earlier generations wouldn't be confused.
Also, I think brother Osama should write an article on this issue if he has the time.

As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters,

Eid Mubarak for you and all of your families!  May Allah Almighty's Peace, Mercy and Blessings be upon you and upon your families.  Ameen.

In regards to this topic, I've covered it in great details on the website at:

http://answering-christianity.com/bones_then_muscles_wrapping.htm
http://answering-christianity.com/sex_determination.htm

There are images that further clarify this in the articles.  Among the books that I used, and captured images from is: The Qur'an and Modern Science, Keith L. Moore, Abdul-Majeed A. Zindani, and Mustafa A. Ahmed, Pages 37-39, 46-47, ISBN 0-9627236-0-6.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2013, 01:16:37 PM »
Assalamualykum, idk man but I think brother Osama can elaborate on the issue as I have little knowledge in classical Arabic. Btw I think it's more of a linguistic issue rather than a scientific issue. If idham can be shown to include ghurdoof than the issue can be easily resolved. Also if that's the case then I believe Allah chose idham rather than ghurdoof so that earlier generations wouldn't be confused.
Also, I think brother Osama should write an article on this issue if he has the time.

As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters,

Eid Mubarak for you and all of your families!  May Allah Almighty's Peace, Mercy and Blessings be upon you and upon your families.  Ameen.

In regards to this topic, I've covered it in great details on the website at:

http://answering-christianity.com/bones_then_muscles_wrapping.htm
http://answering-christianity.com/sex_determination.htm

There are images that further clarify this in the articles.  Among the books that I used, and captured images from is: The Qur'an and Modern Science, Keith L. Moore, Abdul-Majeed A. Zindani, and Mustafa A. Ahmed, Pages 37-39, 46-47, ISBN 0-9627236-0-6.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Asalamu Aliakum brother Osama and Eid Mubarak!

The Articles on the website do not cover the questions raised. In the article as well as Hamza's paper, you say 'Bones' form after the Mudgah stage. The question raised is that it is not a bone per se, it is cartilage model of skeleton. Meaning the components of the cartilaginous model of skeleton is the same as the components of hyaline cartilage (the ones in joints). So the word used should be 'Ghurdoof' (cartilage) rather than 'Idhaam' (bones). Do you know if the word for bones encompasses cartilage too? That would immediately solve the issue.

Offline Sama

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2013, 06:46:42 PM »
So the word used should be 'Ghurdoof' (cartilage) rather than 'Idhaam' (bones). Do you know if the word for bones encompasses cartilage too? That would immediately solve the issue.

Yes it does. Actually it's defined in arabic dictionaries as idham with specific characters i.e pliant, can be eaten,so The word adhm includes hard bones and soft cartilage.
 سنحتكم إلى معاجم اللغة العربية لنعرف هل -في لغة العرب- يعد الغضروف عظم؟ :

(المعجم الوسيط) : الغضروف : كل عظم لين رخص في أي موضع كان.
(المحيط في اللغة) : الغُضْرُوْفُ : كلُّ عَظْم رَخْصٍ.
(الصحاح للجوهري) : الغُرْضوفُ : ما لان من العظم، وهو الغُضْروفُ أيضاً.
(لسان العرب) : الغُضْرُوف : كلُّ عَظم رَخْص ليّن في أَيّ موضع كان.

http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=%D8%BA%D8%B6%D8%B1%D9%88%D9%81

N.B:
Islam haters are the worst kind of ignorant liars out of blind hate.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 06:51:38 PM by Sama »

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2013, 08:07:04 PM »
So the word used should be 'Ghurdoof' (cartilage) rather than 'Idhaam' (bones). Do you know if the word for bones encompasses cartilage too? That would immediately solve the issue.

Yes it does. Actually it's defined in arabic dictionaries as idham with specific characters i.e pliant, can be eaten,so The word adhm includes hard bones and soft cartilage.
 سنحتكم إلى معاجم اللغة العربية لنعرف هل -في لغة العرب- يعد الغضروف عظم؟ :

(المعجم الوسيط) : الغضروف : كل عظم لين رخص في أي موضع كان.
(المحيط في اللغة) : الغُضْرُوْفُ : كلُّ عَظْم رَخْصٍ.
(الصحاح للجوهري) : الغُرْضوفُ : ما لان من العظم، وهو الغُضْروفُ أيضاً.
(لسان العرب) : الغُضْرُوف : كلُّ عَظم رَخْص ليّن في أَيّ موضع كان.

http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=%D8%BA%D8%B6%D8%B1%D9%88%D9%81

N.B:
Islam haters are the worst kind of ignorant liars out of blind hate.

Thank you very much Sama! That cleared it up.

So 'Ghurdoof' is a type of 'Idhaam' that is soft. So Idhaam therefore encompasses Ghurdoof. Just as Cartilage encompasses hyaline cartilage, for example.

Alhamdulilah and God bless you, Sama!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 08:12:14 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2013, 05:58:50 AM »

peace for all


I have a scientific question before elaborating the answers in the thread.....
the muscles of the embryo wrap a cartilage that as a whole has the same hardness or may be some of the cartilage harder than the others?







Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Quran Scientific Difficulty: Embryology
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2013, 11:24:33 PM »

peace for all


I have a scientific question before elaborating the answers in the thread.....
the muscles of the embryo wrap a cartilage that as a whole has the same hardness or may be some of the cartilage harder than the others?

The skeletal model of bone actually has a perichondrium which is very dense and this perichondrium is on the outskirts of the skeletal model of bone. The perichondrium is also on the cartilage that are joints.

So think of it as a skeletal 'model', and the inside is made up of hyaline cartilage with something to hold it there (perichondrium).

So, no its not necessarily harder than the others.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 11:27:34 PM by mclinkin94 »

 

What's new | A-Z | Discuss & Blog | Youtube