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Offline shabeer_hassan

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Who did Christ himself claim to be ?
« on: January 23, 2013, 04:35:26 AM »
Who was Jesus Christ ?

The Jews claim that Christ was the offspring of an adulterous relationship.

The Christians believe that Jesus was one person in the God of the Trinity.

The sources of Islam makes it abundantly clear that Isa, the Messiah, was, in fact, a messenger who was sent to the Israelites.

Who did Christ himself claim to be ?

Has Christ ever claimed that he was one person amongst the triple God-head of the Trinity? Is there any evidence in the Bible to the effect that he did make such a claim? Let us examine the matter.

Father, Son and Holy sprit

The following verses from the Gospel according to Matthew have been produced as evidence in support of the Trinity: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I will be with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:19,20)

These verses are, however, not the proofs for Trinity. Indeed, these verses are better suited as criticism against the Trinity. The only thing that is evident from these verses is that there are three entities namely the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. However, it is not given to understand here that these three are one. If these three were indeed the three personages of the One God then it should have been made clear in the verses themselves or Christ should have declared it himself. Why did Christ, who taught concerning the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, not say himself that these three were the personages of the One God? Is it that Christ had covered up the 'fact' that these three were one from the masses? No. That can never be. The Messiah, who had come as the very messenger of truth would never have covered up anything which he himself knew and which would have served as the means of salvation for his people. He, who had shown the truth and the way, had never abstained from conveying to the masses any belief that would have provided life eternal itself. Yet he had never given out - not even once - the slightest hint of the doctrine of Trinity. It is evident from this itself that the idea of the Trinity does not fall into that group of fundamental beliefs which would serve to provide for eternal life.

'I and the Father are One'

Some have asked the question as to whether Christ had not himself said that "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30) and whether this does not then imply that he and God were, indeed, two parts of the same and single entity. Let us examine this verse in all its completeness. "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:27-30)

There is not even a single indication anywhere in these verses which serve to convincingly present the claim that both Jesus and the Father belong to the triple parts of the same Divine essence. If that is so, then why has it been said here that "I and the Father are one" ?

Observe another of the statements from the Gospel of John: "... that all of them may be one, Father, just as You are in me and I am in You. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that You have sent me. I have given them the glory that You gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and You in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that You sent me and: have loved them even as You have loved me." (John 17:21-23)

In these verses it has been said that not only is God one in Christ alone, but the followers too constitute this oneness with God. If it is claimed that Christ is one in a triple God-head based on the aforementioned statement, "I and the Father are one", it must then be conceded, again on the basis of the above mentioned statement, that the followers of Christ, too, will find an existence within the Divine essence. It is then not the oneness in essence which is mentioned in these verses, but the oneness in ideal and belief. Here, it is the Greek word hen which has been translated as 'one'. This word is never the oneness in essence; it is the oneness in the attitude of co-operation that is implied here.

The saying of Christ that "I and the Father are one" is merely similar in intent to the saying used in the Malayalam language to the effect that "We both are bound to each other (in purpose)." Both Christ and the Father, who are involved in conveying the Divine message are, indeed, one. The followers of Christ, who accept it and attain to life eternal are also members in that communion. It is the communion of the Father, the prophet and of the apostles.

'He who has seen me has seen the father'

Some have asked based on the saying of Jesus, "he who has seen me has seen whether he could not, indeed, be God. Can man ever see God? The fact is that this can never be. Both the Old and the New Testaments have thrown light on this reality. Look at what the book of Exodus quotes Jehovah as having told Moses: "But , he said, 'you cannot see My Face, for no-one may see Me and live.'" (Exodus 33:20) If Christ was, indeed, God, then it would not have been possible for the masses to have seen him. As for Christ, he had lived as one seen by the people and as one seeing them in turn.

What then is the implication of the statement that "he who has seen me has seen father"? Examine this statement in full. "Philip said, 'Lord show us the Father and that will be enough for us.'

Jesus answered: 'Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? " (John 14:8,9). Here Christ has made it clear that none can at any time ever see God and that it is through Jesus that one must come to know God Himself.

Look at what John himself has to say, "No-one has ever seen God, but God, through His only Son, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." (John 1:18). Look at this verse in particular. The phrase used has been that 'No one has ever seen God.' There is no two opinion concerning the fact that this was written after Christ. This has been stated by John who only knew that the people had seen Christ. This means that John had never believed that Jesus Christ was God. Indeed, in the usage of 'God' Christ was never included. Of that we may be certain. It is, therefore, clear that John was a person who knew nothing of the God of the Trinity.

Divine truth was made manifest through Jesus. For he is the messenger of God. Indeed it is simply because of that anyone who knew Jesus came to know of God as well. This means that the son has made him (God) manifest. (John 1:18). This is the essence of the saying of Christ that ' he who has seen me has seen the father. Even when Christ said that "the words that ye hear are not mine, but of the Father who hath sent me" (John 14:24), it was the same message that is being conveyed.

Son of God

Another of the claims has been that as Christ has declared himself to be the son of God and that as his followers never discouraged the practice of calling him as such, it must follow that he did, indeed, possess such divinity. Whenever the Bible does make use of the term 'Son of God' it is necessary, firstly, to examine the meaning that has been intended there. The only Biblical meaning that can be conferred upon the term 'Son of God' is a man, particularly appointed by God Himself. Paul had written that "As many as are led by the spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:14)

The term 'Son of God' has been, therefore, reserved only for the elect of God. This has been the usage both in the Old and the New Testaments. Christ himself has made this clear. "If he called them 'gods' to whom the word of God came - and the Scripture cannot be broken - what about the one whom the Father set apart as His very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?" (John 10:35,36). This would then mean that even as the God of the Israelites had referred to those to whom the Book was revealed as being gods, so was Christ, the messenger, who was sent into the world for the purpose of the guidance called the 'Son of God'.

It can be seen that the term 'Son of God' has been employed as a way of addressing right from the Old Testament itself. In fact, Jacob, Solomon, Ephraim and David: all are the sons of God in the language of the Old Testament.

"Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, ..." (Exodus 4:22)

"I will be his father, and he shall be My son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men." (Samuel 7:14)

"They will come with weeping; they will pray as I bring them back. I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel's father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son." (Jeremiah 31:9)

"I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, 'You are My son; today I have become your Father.'" (Psalm 2:7)

If it is contended that Christ is one in the three personages of the Divine Trinity for the reason that he has been addressed as the son of God, then it must also be conceded that all the prophets in the Old Testament, who were referred to as the sons of God, must all be the personages of the Divine essence as well. But that is not all. The New Testament refers to all those who believe in Christ as the sons of God. Writes John, "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God" (John 1:12). If Christ is, indeed, one person in the essence of the God of the Trinity because he is the Son of God, then it must follow that the apostles, too, who were conferred the right to be the sons of God, must find their membership in the same essence as well.

Matthew has made it clear as to who it is that are entitled to be known as the sons of God. "Blessed are the peace-makers, for they will be called sons of God." (Matthew 5:9). However, none among the peace-makers have raised the claim of being a part of the Divine Essence.

The Miraculous Birth

We have understood that Christ had never claimed to be God or that he was one personage in the God of the Trinity or even that he was the begotten son of God. It is also claimed that he was the son of God as he was born without a father. If that is so, then it must be Adam, who was born without a father and a mother, who is more entitled, than Jesus, to be the son of God! In fact, the Bible does introduce Adam as being the son of God (Luke 3:38). Is it possible to accept Adam as a personage in the essence of God on the premise that he has been recognized as the son of God?

The Bible introduces Melchizedec, the high priest, as one who has neither beginning nor end. Look at what Paul has to write about Melchizedec, the King of Salem, the high priest of God: "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever." (Hebrews 7:3) If it is claimed that Christ was the son of God simply because he was born without a father, it must then be conceded that Melchizedec, who has neither father nor mother, no beginning or end, was even more deserving than Christ in being the son of God. At this rate the number of personages within the divine essence can only but increase. Indeed, the doctrine of Trinity will very well change into a multiplicity of the divine unity!

The Holy Prophet

Who was Christ? This question still remains to be answered. He had himself never claimed to be God or even to be the begotten son of God. Then what was it that he actually did claim?

Read through the statements concerning Christ which have come up in the New Testament. He has been referred to as the 'Son of God' in a very limited number of occasions within the Gospels. This epithette has been, however, used more frequently in the writings of Paul. The Gospels have, on the other hand, referred to Jesus as the 'Son of Man' 63 times.

Yes .... Christ was, indeed, the Son of Man. A man who was subject, like every one of us, to the feelings of hunger, thirst and other emotions. A man great in the sense that he had laboured to sacrifice all his desires for the sake of God's pleasure. A messenger who had striven to his utmost to lead the Children of Israel along that path of Truth and virtue. That which he uttered was but the revelation of God. He said, "He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." (John 14:24) He had performed many a miracle. These were, however, shown by God. Christ had made clear the fact that he could do nothing of himself except that which God had taught him." .... 'I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does." (John 5:19)

Christ was, indeed, a very human messenger. A messenger like Abraham, Ishmael, Jacob, Moses and Joseph. He was the guide of the Children of Israel. He was innocent of sin; a great individual who had persevered to guide society along the path of righteousness by his own example. He was not God; nor even the son of God. Nor yet one in the three personages of the Trinity. He was but a messenger; a very human messenger.

The Complete Man

Examine the New Testament. We see, therein, Christ, the man. If we study the accounts from his birth onwards. We cannot arrive at a picture that is different from that of a human being.

- Jesus is born as the descendent of Abraham and David (Luke 2:21).

- Jesus is circumcised (Luke 2:21).

- Jesus is breast-fed (Luke 11:27).

- Jesus travels on back of the ass (Matthew 21:5).

- Jesus takes food and drink (Matthew 11:19).

- A homeless Jesus (Matthew 8:20).

- Jesus uses clothing (John 19:23).

- Jesus has brothers and sisters (Matthew 13:35).

- The knowledge of Jesus increases with his age (Luke 21:40).

- Jesus, of his own self, can do nothing (John 5:30).

- Jesus is unaware of the time of fruition of the Fig tree (Mark 11:12).

- Jesus exercises obedience through his patience (Ebriar 5:8).

- Jesus experiences hunger (Mark 11:12).

- Jesus experiences thirst (John 19:28).

- Jesus sleeps (Matthew 8:24).

- Jesus is fatigued in a journey (John 4:6).

- Jesus sighs in anxiety (John 11:33).

- Jesus weeps (John 11:35).

- Jesus grieves (Matthew 26:37).

- Jesus exerts his strength (John 2:13).

- Jesus exhorts unto the taking up of the sword (Luke 22:36).

- Jesus fears the Jews (John 18:12,13).

- Jesus is betrayed (John 18:2).

- Jesus is captured (John 18:12,13)

- Jesus is humiliated (Matthew 26:67)

- Jesus is beaten (John 18:22)

- Jesus fears death (Mark 14:36).

- Jesus prays to God (Matthew 26:42).

- A messenger from heaven appears so that Jesus may be strengthened (Luke 22:43).

Let us now think. Is Jesus God or was he human?

Common sense answers that he is, indeed, human. A great messenger!

The Holy Quran had been right all along: "O people of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and his Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not 'Three': desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." (Quran 4:171)

The Gospel of God

Jesus Christ was the messenger of God who was appointed amongst the Israelites. He had himself said: "leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift." (Matthew 5:24). His mission was to bring back the Israelites, who had deviated from the Divine path, to the religion of truth.

The Gospel (Injeel) was the scripture that was revealed to Jesus. He had invited the Israelites towards the path of Truth by preaching the Gospel.

Jesus had taught : " 'The time has come,' he said, 'The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!'" (Mark 1:15). "Firstly, the good news must be preached to all people." (Mark 14:9)

Where is the Gospel, which God had revealed to Jesus Christ, to be found today? Will we ever get a complete picture of the Gospel which Jesus had preached if we are to search the whole of the Bible thoroughly? No. The New testament contain the gospels of Matthew, Mark and John. Where then is the 'Gospel of God' that was preached by Jesus to be found today?

The 'Gospel of God' preached by Jesus Christ is not extant today. Like all the previous divine scriptures which were revealed before it, it, too, has become long forgotten now.

There is but one single religious scripture that has maintained the original purity with which it was revealed. That is the Holy Quran. The Quran is, furthermore, the only book which, on its own, professes to be divine. The Quran is the book which has remained unconquered for fourteen centuries in the face of all the scientific and technological revolutions witnessed by the world.

The Quran was revealed to the world through Muhammad (e) who was prophesied by Jesus as the one who was to come as his successor (John 16:7-14).

Those who desire to obey Jesus and attain to life eternal must, necessarily, follow the Quran as well as the life of Muhammad (e) which was based on it. That is the path of eternal salvation.

Offline Sh Truthseaker

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Re: Who did Christ himself claim to be ?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2015, 07:51:22 PM »
Assalamu Alaikum
When I claim that  Jesus (A) was a man,can't do anything by himself,,told OUR God is one,cried on cross,prayed to God,said he was a man,etc,my friend says some verses in Philippians ch2 and say Jesus(A) was God,then left the equality with God,became human,died on cross,etc. How to reply to that?

Offline submit

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Re: Who did Christ himself claim to be ?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2015, 07:57:25 AM »
Manifestation or incarnation of one of the plural gods into a human appearance is not a new concept of worship. So if we look at the story in Philippians 2 in which he quote long time ago Jesus was God (Word) and later became human. Something doesnt seem to add up.

They are commonly known to say that the plural Gods were having human appearances due to their interpretation of Genesis 1. That means Word was in fact a god in human appearance even before Word was incarnated into the womb of Mary, or perhaps they view Word as having the appearance of a human but do not behave in humility.
So Word in the past was arrogant God in a human appearance. Only when Word gets incarnated as Jesus, he became humble in a human form as none god.

As presented in verse Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,    he humbled himself . Now, this verse can also indicate that Word in the past never even possess a human appearance at all thus making the their interpretation of "human in Our image" rendered invalid.
But there are still 2 more Gods, so they can just the term Our was referring to Father and Holy Spirit who have human appearance in heaven with a slight change into bird dove form for Holy Spirit when going to earth.

Offline brian464

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Re: Who did Christ himself claim to be ?
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2016, 08:59:23 AM »
Who was Jesus Christ ?

When you say Christ, what does that mean ?

Offline Awesome31310

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Re: Who did Christ himself claim to be ?
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2016, 03:49:16 PM »
Gospel of Thomas

77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."


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