I have been to the links you offer and many others by other authors making essentially the same assertions you are making regarding the supposed scientific or numerological miracles in the Qur'an.
One of the signs is about How God will meet His creations on The Day of Resurrection. Prior to that, we will have end of days.
This is a link of reference about shape of universe from NASA (http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html).
Almighty God said He is the One that controls the expansive universe. That's why if we search for facts on the final stage of expansion @ End of Days. We can't find any possibilities of it to happen. Thus the argument of Universe expanding-forever remains true for human as human will never know when it will end.
But , Almighty God said,
"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47)
"Verily, the Hour is surely coming. But I will to keep it hidden, that every soul may be rewarded for that which it strives (to achieve)." [The Qur'an 20:15]
Almighty God explanation on end of days about what will happen to our flat universe.
The Day when We will fold the heaven like the folding of a [written] sheet for the records. As We began the first creation, We will repeat it. [That is] a promise binding upon Us. Indeed, We will do it. (The Qur'an, 21:104)
Indeed , this is a great verse from the Divine Creator reminding us to always prepare before the coming of Judgement Day.
To be a numerical miracle the numerical construction must be beyond the capabilities of a 7th century man to make. I gave the example of how easy it is to describe a 950 year old man in 950 letters, as any student is capable of doing. Yet, this construction of words at the level of a high school writing assignment is fallaciously put forth as proof of a miracle.
“StardustyPsyche is a really great man who lived in the USA for 58 years” Note, I have described a 58 year old man using 58 characters, therefore I am god!!!
“… If galaxies are moving away from us, reasoned Hubble, then at some time in the past, they must have been clustered close together.”Source: http://home.cern/about/physics/early-universe
“In the first moments after the Big Bang, the universe was extremely hot and dense. (…) It took 380,000 years for electrons to be trapped in orbits around nuclei, forming the first atoms. These were mainly helium and hydrogen, which are still by far the most abundant elements in the universe. 1.6 million years later, gravity began to form stars and galaxies from clouds of gas.”Source: http://home.cern/about/physics/early-universe
“Only a profound belief in himself and his mission explains Muhammad's readiness to endure hardship and persecution during the Meccan period when from a secular point of view there was no prospect of success. Without sincerity how could he have won the allegiance and even devotion of men … His sincerity in this belief must be accepted by the modern historian, for this alone makes credible the development of a great religion.”Source: Watt, Montgomery, Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman. Oxford University Press, 1961. From p. 232 + The Cambridge History of Islam (1970), Cambridge University Press, p.30
“Dilemma of Applying ReasonSource: http://www.discoveringislam.org/dr_gary_miller.htm
Almost all of us have been faced with the questioning of a child by repeating one word over and over. He can be very frustrating to us as he asks Why? If you put a knife beyond his reach, he wants to know, Why? When you explain it is sharp, he asks "Why?" And so you explain, in order to cut fruit, and he asks, Why? And so it goes
It illustrates the dilemma of applying reason. What we have to do when we apply reason is first to set standards of proof. We decide for ourselves, "What will I be satisfied with if I find such and such and so and so that constitutes for me a final proof?" We have to decide on that first.
What happens though, is that on the really important issues, the philosophical matters, thinkers set standards and eventually they may arrive at their standards. They may arrive at the point which they say would constitute a proof. But then they ask for a proof of the proof.
Setting Standards
The key to avoiding this endless dissatisfaction is to satisfy ourselves about standards first; to satisfy ourselves that such and such are a list of criteria that constitute proof, satisfying proof, and then we test the subjects that we examine.”
They are all easily explained as either simple observations well within the capabilities of 7th century men, or a few general inferences lacking anything close to miraculous specificity, or numerological constructions well within the capacity of 7th century men to construct. Do you have any specific citations of the Qur'an that are not of this kind?
ll the author needed to do is keep writing and counting and editing until the desired “950 noble letters” were used. This is a very simple process that requires no god.
Your other numerological claims to miraculous origins fail for the same reason, they are within the capabilities of 7th century men to intentionally construct, and therefore of no value as evidence for a miraculous origin claim.
Couldn’t find this in your below citations
All your attempts at demonstrating a scientific miracle in the Qur’an are false. All my refutations of your assertions stand utterly unrebutted by you.
Brother Hamza has some things to say. I found this by following your links :)
http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/
Peace Bro
As'salamu Alaikum akhi Dawud,
May Allah Almighty bless you. But brother, as I requested before, please do not post the DNA and RNA stuff here, or any related nonsense here. Taking partial letters from random words and say they are D and N and A is nonsense. Same with with RNA and NTRA and all other nonsense that you posted. And I told you also that using this method, we can also extract the F*** word and any word we like!
Please do not spam this board with this nonsense, akhi. And worse, please do not make a mockery out of the Holy Quran's Scientific and Numerical Miracles, akhi. I already made this request before, dear brother, and removed these posts before.
Please present your case here as to why they should be allowed. Let's discuss it here in the open. Show me where I am going wrong, please. Don't just impose them on us like this.
Either way, may Allah Almighty bless you for your efforts and sincerity. Ameen.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
As'salamu Alaikum akhi Dawud,
I just did brief checks on DNA and you are wrong for the following reasons:
1- Noble Verse 18:65 is talking about a MALE servant, and no name was mentioned. Here is the Arabic text:
18:65 فوجدا عبدا من عبادنا اتيناه رحمة من عندنا وعلمناه من لدنا علما
[018:065] Then found they one of Our slaves, unto whom We had given mercy from Us, and had taught him knowledge from Our presence.
The Arabic word that has DNA letters in Arabic in the Noble Verse is لدنا. But this Noble Word is also used in the following Noble Verses, and they don't give any hint about the Word's meaning to mean DNA today.
Show me where following Noble Verses are hinting to DNA?
4:67 واذا لاتيناهم من لدنا اجرا عظيما
[004:067] And We should then have given them from our presence a great reward;
19:13 وحنانا من لدنا وزكاة وكان تقيا
[019:013] And piety (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity: He was devout,
20:99 كذلك نقص عليك من انباء ماقد سبق وقد اتيناك من لدنا ذكرا
[020:099] Thus do We relate to thee some stories of what happened before: for We have sent thee a Message from Our own Presence.
21:17 لو اردنا ان نتخذ لهوا لاتخذناه من لدنا ان كنا فاعلين
[021:017] If it had been Our wish to take (just) a pastime, We should surely have taken it from the things nearest to Us, if We would do (such a thing)!
28:57 وقالوا ان نتبع الهدى معك نتخطف من ارضنا او لم نمكن لهم حرما امنا يجبى اليه ثمرات كل شئ رزقا من لدنا ولكن اكثرهم لايعلمون
[028:057] They say: "If we were to follow the guidance with thee, we should be snatched away from our land." Have We not established for them a secure sanctuary, to which are brought as tribute fruits of all kinds,- a provision from Ourselves? but most of them understand not.
I won't argue long with you on this. Please do not use this approach here. The others where you matched Noble Verses' numerical references with dates are ok.
May Allah Almighty bless you. Please honor my request to you.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
I just did brief checks on DNA and you are wrong for the following reasons:
1- Noble Verse 18:65 is talking about a MALE servant, and no name was mentioned. Here is the Arabic text:
18:65 فوجدا عبدا من عبادنا اتيناه رحمة من عندنا وعلمناه من لدنا علما
[018:065] Then found they one of Our slaves, unto whom We had given mercy from Us, and had taught him knowledge from Our presence.
The Arabic word that has DNA letters in Arabic in the Noble Verse is لدنا. But this Noble Word is also used in the following Noble Verses, and they don't give any hint about the Word's meaning to mean DNA today.
Sorry brother Osama, but Hamza Tzortzis has called your assertions “an intellectual embarrassment” and “incoherent” as well as lacking “intellectual integrity”.
Hamza Tzortzis has explicitly refuted a number of your asserted scientific miracles.
Hamza Tzortzis is undoubtedly well aware of all your other asserted miracles and is unable to apply his criteria for verification of any of them as scientific miracles.
Hamza Tzortzis used to make the argument from embryology, as well as others. He put his words to the test of public scrutiny and very much to his credit he has come to realize he was simply mistaken. He has shown great intellectual integrity by having the courage to make a change in the face of reason and facts.
I sincerely invite you to examine the below words in context, consider the refutations I have made, and make a change. I know that rejecting your faith altogether is a bridge too far for you, but your notion of scientific miracles in the Qur’an simply is not tenable.
http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/
“Regrettably, the scientific miracles narrative has become an intellectual embarrassment for Muslim apologists, including myself”
“It has become an intellectual embarrassment for Muslim apologists and it has exposed the lack of coherence in the way they have formulated the argument.”
“To claim that there is anything scientifically miraculous about a particular Qur’ānic verse is incoherent.”
“When claiming that something is miraculous it means that there is no plausible naturalistic explanation.”
“It is all a learning curve and an important part of developing intellectual integrity.”
“Although this proposed criteria to salvage the science in the Qur’ān narrative is still work in progress, I personally find it almost impossible to practically fulfill the above criteria.”
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Dawud,
Please write your actual writings in text and not in images. Just like your answers to me in your recent posts. This would:
1- Allow for your writings to be picked up by search engines.
2- Allow for them to be searchable by the users.
3- Allows the user to copy and paste and verify.
Now for actual pictures like the Leech, for example, then yes, please do post them as pictures. But please make your text in actual writings and not images. If I have objections or find errors, then I'll just directly respond to you. This way we can interact and reach to the Truth, insha'Allah.
May Allah Almighty bless you, akhi. Ameen. Feel free to express your thoughts as you wish. I won't interfere. I will interact with replies if needed, insha'Allah.
Take care akhi, and keep up the great work!
Osama Abdallah
As'salamu Alaikum brother Osama,
In any language there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an. I do not rely on one translator, rather I go to corpus.quran, and if you have additional translations I am always interested in contrasting your translation with that of established and often referenced authors.
In any language brother Hamza has thoroughly refuted explicitly several of your asserted scientific miracles. You have offered no specific rebuttals to our refutations, only links that repeat your erroneous assertions. He has not explicitly addressed all of them but I will begin to do so myself below.
Yes, I would be interested in the PhDs and others you mention. What are their names?
I have replicated one of your asserted miracles. It took me about an hour.
Below are 114 numbers representing the number of verses in 114 chapters of a book.
105,59,48,59,20,49,29,74,28,4,22,4,7,63,18,92,13,7,12,104,8,92,74,44,86,2,85,22,19,94,18,97,18,54,53,40,72,26,42,98,13,4,26,96,74,12,99,35,71,93,33,57,103,32,46,75,98,4,99,9,14,52,44,87,46,81,93,2,101,17,17,29,30,87,40,62,40,100,104,54,85,27,41,83,70,98,30,35,65,105,64,8,96,66,69,4,47,65,72,18,31,48,64,13,100,21,46,3,63,11,103,103,98,46
The sum of these 114 numbers is 5938.
The sum of 114 verse numbers is 6555, as you have often cited.
Entering the 114 verse count number into your numerology algorithm yields a sum of even numbers equal to 5938, and the sum of the odd numbers equal to 6555.
I, an ordinary man, intentionally constructed this “numerical miracle”. Therefore, an ordinary 7th century man was capable of doing the same.
It was all good fun and I learned a few fascinating aspects of this numerological illusion, and in the spirit of Randy, I will reveal my secrets.
First the sum of the chapter numbers and the verse numbers must always equal the sum of the even numbers and the odd numbers. This is because the whole numerological algorithm is just an example of the associative property and the commutative property of addition. The algorithm adds a set of numbers using one set of associations, then adds that same set of numbers a second time using a different set of associations. Since association and commutation does not change the sum in addition of positive numbers the answers must always match no matter what the verse lengths are.
But this numerology lays out additional criteria. The individual sums must always match. Now, since 6555 is an odd number the chapter number total must match the odd number total, because a sum of even numbers is always an even number.
Likewise, the verse length total must be an even number, because it must match the total of even numbers, which is always even.
So, all I had to do was get the odd number total to match the fixed value of 6555. This was quickly and easily done by my brain. For example, if the total of the odd numbers was 121 too low, all I had to do was look for an even number of 122. I then subtracted 1 from the verse length on that row so the total would now be 121 on that row. The even/odd test automatically moved the number 122 out of the even number column and into the odd number column as 121.
This movement caused the odd number total to rise to exactly 6555. By necessity of the algorithmic structure the even number total automatically then matched the verse count total and…presto…I created a “numerical miracle”.
In real life all the scribe would have had to do is combine 2 adjacent verses in the chapter into a single verse, and he would have achieved the exact same effect.
Brother Osama, the time has come for an intellectual awakening for you. I warmly invite you to the realm of rationality and reason. I urge you to find the intellectual courage to realize the enormity of your errors, and make a change that cleanses your mind of your irrational belief in scientific miracles in the Qur’an.
I, for one, will not be gloating when you do, rather, warmly welcoming you into the light of reason.
Peace Bro
As'salamu Alaikum brother Osama,
In any language there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an. I do not rely on one translator, rather I go to corpus.quran, and if you have additional translations I am always interested in contrasting your translation with that of established and often referenced authors.
In any language brother Hamza has thoroughly refuted explicitly several of your asserted scientific miracles. You have offered no specific rebuttals to our refutations, only links that repeat your erroneous assertions. He has not explicitly addressed all of them but I will begin to do so myself below.
Yes, I would be interested in the PhDs and others you mention. What are their names?
I have replicated one of your asserted miracles. It took me about an hour.
Below are 114 numbers representing the number of verses in 114 chapters of a book.
105,59,48,59,20,49,29,74,28,4,22,4,7,63,18,92,13,7,12,104,8,92,74,44,86,2,85,22,19,94,18,97,18,54,53,40,72,26,42,98,13,4,26,96,74,12,99,35,71,93,33,57,103,32,46,75,98,4,99,9,14,52,44,87,46,81,93,2,101,17,17,29,30,87,40,62,40,100,104,54,85,27,41,83,70,98,30,35,65,105,64,8,96,66,69,4,47,65,72,18,31,48,64,13,100,21,46,3,63,11,103,103,98,46
The sum of these 114 numbers is 5938.
The sum of 114 verse numbers is 6555, as you have often cited.
Entering the 114 verse count number into your numerology algorithm yields a sum of even numbers equal to 5938, and the sum of the odd numbers equal to 6555.
I, an ordinary man, intentionally constructed this “numerical miracle”. Therefore, an ordinary 7th century man was capable of doing the same.
It was all good fun and I learned a few fascinating aspects of this numerological illusion, and in the spirit of Randy, I will reveal my secrets.
First the sum of the chapter numbers and the verse numbers must always equal the sum of the even numbers and the odd numbers. This is because the whole numerological algorithm is just an example of the associative property and the commutative property of addition. The algorithm adds a set of numbers using one set of associations, then adds that same set of numbers a second time using a different set of associations. Since association and commutation does not change the sum in addition of positive numbers the answers must always match no matter what the verse lengths are.
But this numerology lays out additional criteria. The individual sums must always match. Now, since 6555 is an odd number the chapter number total must match the odd number total, because a sum of even numbers is always an even number.
Likewise, the verse length total must be an even number, because it must match the total of even numbers, which is always even.
So, all I had to do was get the odd number total to match the fixed value of 6555. This was quickly and easily done by my brain. For example, if the total of the odd numbers was 121 too low, all I had to do was look for an even number of 122. I then subtracted 1 from the verse length on that row so the total would now be 121 on that row. The even/odd test automatically moved the number 122 out of the even number column and into the odd number column as 121.
This movement caused the odd number total to rise to exactly 6555. By necessity of the algorithmic structure the even number total automatically then matched the verse count total and…presto…I created a “numerical miracle”.
In real life all the scribe would have had to do is combine 2 adjacent verses in the chapter into a single verse, and he would have achieved the exact same effect.
Brother Osama, the time has come for an intellectual awakening for you. I warmly invite you to the realm of rationality and reason. I urge you to find the intellectual courage to realize the enormity of your errors, and make a change that cleanses your mind of your irrational belief in scientific miracles in the Qur’an.
I, for one, will not be gloating when you do, rather, warmly welcoming you into the light of reason.
Peace Bro
Brother Dawud,
Thank you for quoting the Qur’an, it makes such an obvious fact of the utter lack of scientific miracles in it.
“We created man from an extract of clay.”
No, science tells us that humans evolved from lower primates.
“Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed.”
No, this is nonsense. There is no “drop in a place of settlement” phase in human development.
“ Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot),”
No, there is no leech stage or blood clot stage of human development. Anyone who has ever cut the cord for a newborn baby knows babies are, in a very vague sense, a “suspended thing”.
“ then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... “
No, there is no “chewed substance” stage of human development.
1 (Quran, 23:12-14)
This passage is obviously a crude and false guess about human origins from mud, followed by a very primitive and ignorant description of the products of miscarriage.
I will not post the images themselves because it could be an emotional issue for those who have lost a child in pregnancy, but the unfortunate fact is that miscarriages have been happening for all human time. In the days of Muhammad there was no 911 call and a rush to the hospital. Women had their miscarriages wherever they lived so the sight of the products must have been well known.
Obviously, the products of a miscarriage look like “a chewed thing” or a “leech” or a “blood clot” just use google images.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--6AnFcAXnZY/VVp5JROhJGI/AAAAAAAABlQ/vXJyFxq-Zt8/s1600/first-trimester-miscarriage.jpg
http://lostinnocentsorthodox.blogspot.com/p/photographs.html
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l40/jlojoyz/Period2.jpg
http://www.newkidscenter.com/images/1FR00694/4%20weeks.JPG
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/bethanyd.jpg
http://imageserve.babycenter.com/15/000/313/2tY0KDyLyphZdkjRO3r5sSAvDtjDRMjc_lg.jpg
Muhammad was just giving a crude description of an unfortunately all too common sight.
How anybody can even remotely consider this to be a “scientific miracle” is the only mind-boggling aspect to the nonsense argument from embryology.
“We created man from an extract of clay.”
No, science tells us that humans evolved from lower primates.
“ Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot),”
No, there is no leech stage or blood clot stage of human development. Anyone who has ever cut the cord for a newborn baby knows babies are, in a very vague sense, a “suspended thing”.
Brother Dawud,
No, there is no leech stage to human development.
"what is this then?" you ask.
Answer, a human embryo.
Yes, I realize that at that point in development there is a very crude resemblance between a leech and a human embryo.
This resembles a leech
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5Oh_aR1WQ9Q/U9E5p18kanI/AAAAAAAASOw/6gLuAevyh20/s1600/image_2+-+WM.jpeg
This also resembles a leech
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/bethanyd.jpg
It is a simple observational fact that human beings resemble leeches in their early development.
All that is needed to observe this fact is a miscarriage.
Miscarriages were, unfortunately, common.
There is no scientific miracle in describing the products of a miscarriage as a leech, or a clot, or a chewed thing. Those are just crude descriptions of the obvious.
Peace Bro
No, there is no leech stage to human development.
This resembles a leech
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5Oh_aR1WQ9Q/U9E5p18kanI/AAAAAAAASOw/6gLuAevyh20/s1600/image_2+-+WM.jpeg
This also resembles a leech
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/bethanyd.jpg
Brother Dawud,
I have conclusively demonstrated that the so-called miracle as described by brother Osama can be easily constructed by a human being.
This is what Osama says is a miracle:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
The Glorious Quran has 114 Chapters. The sum of those Chapters is 6555 (1+2+...+114 = 6555). There are also 6236 Noble Verses in the Glorious Quran. Now, IF YOU ADD EACH CHAPTER # with the number of its Verses, then you get a list of numbers. So 1 (first Chapter) + 7 (# of its Verses) = 8. Do this for all Chapters.
1- The sum of the odd numbers from the list = 6555.
2- The sum of the even numbers from the list = 6236.
I quickly and easily reproduced that “miracle”, conclusively discounting Osama’s assertion.
Now, brother Dawud, you seek to add additional constraints to this mere trick of numerological construction. In American parlance we call that “moving the goalposts”.
Mr. Habal,
I see clearly that you are prone to make assumptions when you do not have evidence.
Actually, the books of Moses contain even more instructions to wretched actions than the Qur'an. Unfortunately for the indigenous people of what we now call Palestine or Israel those instructions were genocide against them. Fortunately for the rest of the world, the explicit incitement to murder made by Moses was limited to that relatively small geographical area.
Your post is little more than a disjointed rant, filled with anger and accusations based on assumptions for which you have no evidence beyond what you can "smell" through your computer.
The "miracle" I have thoroughly debunked is that life is made from water.
You wish to bring up that the Qur'an also says that man was made from mud. That is also scientifically false. Science tells us that human beings evolved from lower primates, not mud.
You seek to discount the fact and theory of evolution by citing a tiny percentage of individuals in the field who have in fact used fraud to further their own agenda, likely fame and wealth. That is one of the great things about science. It is other scientists who expose false claims through the scientific method.
Indeed, the Qur'an is not a science book and there are no scientific miracles in it. There are a number of very crude and obvious observations in it that are so apparent to any careful observer that they have some alignment with reality if interpreted in the broadest sense, which in no way qualifies such statements as miracles.
Peace Mr. Habal
Science tells us that human beings evolved from lower primates, not mud.
Brother Dawud,
I have conclusively demonstrated that the so-called miracle as described by brother Osama can be easily constructed by a human being.
This is what Osama says is a miracle:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
The Glorious Quran has 114 Chapters. The sum of those Chapters is 6555 (1+2+...+114 = 6555). There are also 6236 Noble Verses in the Glorious Quran. Now, IF YOU ADD EACH CHAPTER # with the number of its Verses, then you get a list of numbers. So 1 (first Chapter) + 7 (# of its Verses) = 8. Do this for all Chapters.
1- The sum of the odd numbers from the list = 6555.
2- The sum of the even numbers from the list = 6236.
I quickly and easily reproduced that “miracle”, conclusively discounting Osama’s assertion.
Now, brother Dawud, you seek to add additional constraints to this mere trick of numerological construction. In American parlance we call that “moving the goalposts”.
Brother Dawud,you have succeded with first task
You have given me an very easy task.
"If you Think it is easy to do, let make an experiment, use 10 first chapter, and use what ever verse number to specific chapter as you wish, and make it so that
sum of chapters, = sum of odd
sum of verses, = sum of evens
just do it with 10 chapters if you can"
Ch Vs Ev Odd
1 23 24
2 36 38
3 47 50
4 23 27
5 27 32
6 62 68
7 2 9
8 66 74
9 10 19
10 2 12
Sum Sum Sum Sum
55 298 298 55
There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an. All asserted numerological "miracles" are the result of
1. Intentional human construction
2. Chance
3. Reverse association of numerical relationships by cherry picking
As'salamu Alaikum brother Dawud
Brother Dawud,
So you and I agree that brother Osama’s assertion that
sum of chapters, = sum of odd
sum of verses, = sum of evens
constitutes a miracle is false.
We agree that it is trivial for a human being to construct such an arrangement, which disqualifies Osama’s published rationale for a “scientific miracle”.
Now, you have added 2 criteria that you claim make this arrangement a true miracle
1. That the number of even sums equals the odd sums
2. That the ratio as described above is the golden ratio, which is necessarily a miracle.
Sorry, brother Dawud, you are as mistaken as Osama in your assertion of the necessity of a miracle to explain these items.
First, getting the even sums to match the odd sums is trivial. There is no upper bound on the number of such solutions. I could list them for you as fast as I can write. But I will give you just one
Ch Vs Ev Odd
1 23 24
2 7 9
3 47 50
4 7 11
5 27 32
6 5 11
7 2 9
8 66 74
9 6 15
10 2 12
Sum Sum Sum Sum
55 192 192 55
As for your second assertion it is false on several counts.
First, you have falsely stated the golden ratio. The golden ratio does not equal 7905/4885. The golden ratio equals (1 + sqrt(5))/2.
1.6182190378710337768… = 7905/4885
1.6180339887498948482... = (1 + sqrt(5))/2
Surly the all knowing creator of the universe who knows every subatomic detail of the entire universe would know these numbers are not equal!
Your assertion is also false because it is easily explained by reverse cherry picking. If the ratio had turned out to be
2.718
you may as well have said “ah ha!!! The base of natural logarithms!!!”
And why 7905/4885? Why not 4885/7905? Your choice is arbitrary and merely a reverse engineered cherry picking.
There are endless ratios and numbers in nature and mathematics. There are endless ways to count chapters and verses and letters in the Qur’an. Eventually you can find a match to 3 decimal places. No miracle needed.
Sorry brothers Dawud and Osama, your arguments for the necessity of a miracle in this case are nonsense, and the demonstration of their falsehood is trivial.
Peace to you both
Brother Dawud,
So you and I agree that brother Osama’s assertion that
sum of chapters, = sum of odd
sum of verses, = sum of evens
constitutes a miracle is false
First, you have falsely stated the golden ratio. The golden ratio does not equal 7905/4885. The golden ratio equals (1 + sqrt(5))/2.
1.6182190378710337768… = 7905/4885
1.6180339887498948482... = (1 + sqrt(5))/2
Surly the all knowing creator of the universe who knows every subatomic detail of the entire universe would know these numbers are not equal!
Chapter | Verses | Even | Odd | Rpt | Non-Rpt |
1 | 10 | 11 | 10 | ||
2 | 9 | 11 | 9 | ||
3 | 8 | 11 | 8 | ||
4 | 7 | 11 | 7 | ||
5 | 6 | 11 | 6 | ||
6 | 318 | 324 | 318 | ||
7 | 809 | 816 | 809 | ||
8 | 320 | 328 | 320 | ||
9 | 809 | 818 | 809 | ||
10 | 322 | 332 | 322 | ||
Sum | Sum | Sum | Sum | Sum | Sum |
55 | 2618 | 2618 | 55 | 1618 | 1000 |
Chapter | Verses | Even | Odd | Rpt | Non-Rpt |
1 | 22 | 23 | 23 | ||
2 | 7 | 9 | 9 | ||
3 | 22 | 25 | 25 | ||
4 | 5 | 9 | 9 | ||
5 | 26 | 31 | 31 | ||
6 | 9 | 15 | 15 | ||
7 | 28 | 35 | 35 | ||
8 | 5 | 13 | 13 | ||
9 | 20 | 29 | 29 | ||
10 | 11 | 21 | 21 | ||
11 | 389 | 400 | 400 | ||
12 | 388 | 400 | 400 | ||
13 | 387 | 400 | 400 | ||
14 | 386 | 400 | 400 | ||
15 | 107 | 122 | 122 | ||
16 | 104 | 120 | 120 | ||
17 | 177 | 194 | 194 | ||
18 | 90 | 108 | 108 | ||
19 | 127 | 146 | 146 | ||
20 | 98 | 118 | 118 | ||
Sum | Sum | Sum | Sum | Sum | Sum |
210 | 2408 | 2408 | 210 | 1618 | 1000 |
If your child gets a bacterial infection will you really request the physician to use a fly that has that same pathogen on one wing, extract the antidote from the other wing, and give it to your child to swallow?
submit,
Yes, I realize the Hadith does not explicitly call for the extraction of medicine from the wings of flies. I am employing argumentum ad absurdum to demonstrate my position.
Do you really believe in an antidote on the opposite wing?
If so, then it is reasonable to use the information in this Hadith to cure human infections.
1. Capture a fly.
2. Test 1 wing for pathogens.
3. If a pathogen is found dip the other wing in a solvent to capture the antidote in solution.
4. Process the dissolved antidote into a deliverable medicine form.
5. Whenever an individual is identified with an infection of the type of pathogen identified in step 2 administer the antidote medicine obtained in step 4.
Brother Dawud,
I believe I may have applied a different numerological algorithm than the one you specified!
No matter, I solved it with another algorithm, the below entry matches my most recent reading of your algorithm. That is one of the fascinating things about iterative numerical methods. One may curve fit using a wide variety of functions and arrive at a solution to the specified degree of accuracy, in this case 3 decimal places. The solution converges on a different set of coefficients, but is just as valid as any other solution.
Again please note, 1618/1000 = 1.618, an exact representation of the approximation "everybody" uses.
Chapter Verses Even Odd Rpt Non-Rpt 1 22 23 23 2 7 9 9 3 22 25 25 4 5 9 9 5 26 31 31 6 9 15 15 7 28 35 35 8 5 13 13 9 20 29 29 10 11 21 21 11 389 400 400 12 388 400 400 13 387 400 400 14 386 400 400 15 107 122 122 16 104 120 120 17 177 194 194 18 90 108 108 19 127 146 146 20 98 118 118 Sum Sum Sum Sum Sum Sum 210 2408 2408 210 1618 1000
If you find any errors in my calculations please me know, after all, the ancient men who embedded these numerological arrangements had decades to do so and I just started a couple days ago!
Peace Bro
Chapter | Verses | Even | Odd | Rpt | Non-Rpt |
1 | 16 | 17 | 17 | ||
2 | 7 | 9 | 9 | ||
3 | 16 | 19 | 19 | ||
4 | 5 | 9 | 9 | ||
5 | 20 | 25 | 25 | ||
6 | 9 | 15 | 15 | ||
7 | 28 | 35 | 35 | ||
8 | 5 | 13 | 13 | ||
9 | 20 | 29 | 29 | ||
10 | 1962 | 1972 | 1972 | ||
11 | 1961 | 1972 | 1972 | ||
12 | 1960 | 1972 | 1972 | ||
13 | 1959 | 1972 | 1972 | ||
14 | 1104 | 1118 | 1118 | ||
15 | 1177 | 1192 | 1192 | ||
16 | 1090 | 1106 | 1106 | ||
17 | 1127 | 1144 | 1144 | ||
18 | 154 | 172 | 172 | ||
Sum | Sum | Sum | Sum | Sum | Sum |
171 | 12620 | 12620 | 171 | 7906 | 4885 |
I have conclusively proved that the claim of a miracle made by brother Osama is false and should be removed from his posted claims.
I have no independent means to verify your latest asserted set of relationships even exits, and I have no intention of counting verses in the Qur'an myself.
To work on your latest set of "miraculous" criteria I would need in text form a summary of all the data cited, preferably in .xls or .csv form. If you could clearly and concisely list in text form all the relations of all the components you wish to engineer into your "miracle" I can work on it over time.
My assertion stands, that there are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an, and the asserted numerological associations are within the capability of 7th century man to engineer into the texts.
Oh, but I did another solution! This time I duplicated the exact numbers of the so called golden ratio supposedly created in code by Allah. And I can assure you, I am not Allah, yet I produced these numbers. There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
Chapter Verses Even Odd Rpt Non-Rpt 1 16 17 17 2 7 9 9 3 16 19 19 4 5 9 9 5 20 25 25 6 9 15 15 7 28 35 35 8 5 13 13 9 20 29 29 10 1962 1972 1972 11 1961 1972 1972 12 1960 1972 1972 13 1959 1972 1972 14 1104 1118 1118 15 1177 1192 1192 16 1090 1106 1106 17 1127 1144 1144 18 154 172 172 Sum Sum Sum Sum Sum Sum 171 12620 12620 171 7906 4885
Brother Osama asserts that 36:38 is some kind of miracle.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
In fact it is plainly obvious. Just look up in the sky during the day! “The sun runs a course for a time to a fixed resting place.”
How can any reasonable person consider that to somehow be a miracle? That is just a crude and erroneous description of the obvious.
The sun does not rest, it just seems to at sunset.
The sunset point is not fixed, rather it changes each day.
The sun was thought to orbit the Earth in those days, which is a far simpler explanation for the words than an asserted miracle of predicted galactic orbit.
Brothers, where is the scientific miracle in all that?
Those verses are just meandering words asserting thrones and angels and spirits and stairways. Not a bit of “scientific miracle” in any of it.
A day is either a day, or 1000 years, or 50,000 years. So, according to the Qur’an, the universe and the Earth was created in either 6 days, 6000 years, or 300,000 years.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong, science tells us.
There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.
“The sun runs a course for a time to a fixed resting place.”
How can any reasonable person consider that to somehow be a miracle? That is just a crude and erroneous description of the obvious.
The sun does not rest, it just seems to at sunset.
The sunset point is not fixed, rather it changes each day.
The sun was thought to orbit the Earth in those days, which is a far simpler explanation for the words than an asserted miracle of predicted galactic orbit.
The sun does not rest,
A day is either a day, or 1000 years, or 50,000 years. So, according to the Qur’an, the universe and the Earth was created in either 6 days, 6000 years, or 300,000 years.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong, science tells us.
There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.
Question to arabic speakers
what does this two words mean
fromverse
76:28
نَحْنُ خَلَقْنَاهُمْ وَشَدَدْنَا أَسْرَهُمْ ۖ وَإِذَا شِئْنَا بَدَّلْنَا أَمْثَالَهُمْ تَبْدِيلًاِ
washadadna asrahum
does it mean
We strengthened their form
some translate it like this
We created them and fixed their bones and joints;
We created them and made their joints strong,
We created them and made their joints firm,
We created them, and We strengthened their joints;
We created them and strengthened their joints;
Why do they translate joints, is asrahum (their joints) or ???
why do i ask this beacuse
from the begining of the Chapter Insan (Human)
to the word (We strengthened their joints / We trengthened their form) there is 206 words
and we know today that humans have 206 bones in their body
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bones_of_the_human_skeleton
The skeleton of an adult human consists of 206 bones. It is composed of 270 bones at birth, which decreases to 206 bones by adulthood after some bones have fused together
The 206 Bones of the Human Body
http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~kleine/anatomy/bones.html
http://www.ivyroses.com/HumanBody/Skeletal/how-many-bones-in-the-human-body.php
There are 206 named bones a normal, complete, adult human skeleton.
evidence
Hal ata AAala alinsani heenun mina alddahri lam yakun shayan mathkooran
Inna khalaqna alinsana min nutfatin amshajin nabtaleehi fajaAAalnahu sameeAAan baseeran
Inna hadaynahu alssabeela imma shakiran waimma kafooran
Inna aAAtadna lilkafireena salasila waaghlalan wasaAAeeran
Inna alabrara yashraboona min kasin kana mizajuha kafooran
AAaynan yashrabu biha AAibadu Allahi yufajjiroonaha tafjeeran
Yoofoona bialnnathri wayakhafoona yawman kana sharruhu mustateeran
WayutAAimona alttaAAama AAala hubbihi miskeenan wayateeman waaseeran
Innama nutAAimukum liwajhi Allahi la nureedu minkum jazaan wala shukooran
Inna nakhafu min rabbina yawman AAaboosan qamtareeran
Fawaqahumu Allahu sharra thalika alyawmi walaqqahum nadratan wasurooran
Wajazahum bima sabaroo jannatan wahareeran
Muttakieena feeha AAala alaraiki la yarawna feeha shamsan wala zamhareeran
Wadaniyatan AAalayhim thilaluha wathullilat qutoofuha tathleelan
Wayutafu AAalayhim bianiyatin min fiddatin waakwabin kanat qawareera
Qawareera min fiddatin qaddarooha taqdeeran
Wayusqawna feeha kasan kana mizajuha zanjabeelan
AAaynan feeha tusamma salsabeelan
Wayatoofu AAalayhim wildanun mukhalladoona itha raaytahum hasibtahum luluan manthooran
Waitha raayta thamma raayta naAAeeman wamulkan kabeeran
AAaliyahum thiyabu sundusin khudrun waistabraqun wahulloo asawira min fiddatin wasaqahum rabbuhum sharaban tahooran
Inna hatha kana lakum jazaan wakana saAAyukum mashkooran
Inna nahnu nazzalna AAalayka alqurana tanzeelan
Faisbir lihukmi rabbika wala tutiAA minhum athiman aw kafooran
Waothkuri isma rabbika bukratan waaseelan
Wamina allayli faosjud lahu wasabbihhu laylan taweelan
Inna haolai yuhibboona alAAajilata wayatharoona waraahum yawman thaqeelan
Nahnu khalaqnahum
copy this and you will get 206 words to the word washadadna (we strengthened)
…For the Sana’a manuscripts, it reveals occasional variations in the ordering of the sūrahs (or chapters) of the Quran, and slight variations in reading that correspond to the variations that had been preserved in the extensive Islamic material detailing variant readings of the Quran. But all of these variations had already been and recorded in the Islamic historiographical tradition. In other words, analysis of the “under text” confirms the accuracy of early Islamic historiography.Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-e-b-lumbard/new-light-on-the-history-_b_7864930.html
This changes the field of Quranic Studies because it provides empirical support for the accuracy of the traditional Islamic accounts that many western scholars have previously claimed to be anachronistic and unreliable, such as the existence of variant manuscripts of the Quran before the collation of the text in 650. Furthermore, statistical analysis of the variants within the earliest manuscripts suggests that the final version that came to be the accepted text of the Quran “is overall a better reproduction of the common source.” Even minor textual variations that were reported by early Islamic scholars and transmitted in the Quranic commentary tradition find substantiation in the “under text” of the earliest manuscripts of the Quran.
In addition, recent studies have demonstrated that the earliest Islamic literature on variant readings of the Quran is for the most part reliable and that the historicity of the received data is, as Michael Cook of Princeton University observes, “a testimony to the continuing accuracy of the transmission of the variants.” Such findings correspond with the most recent anthropological studies that confirm the historical reliability of oral transmission traditions.”
The region of rapid density change is known as the pycnocline, and it acts as a barrier to vertical water circulation; thus it also affects the vertical distribution of certain chemicals which play a role in the biology of the seas. The sharp gradients in temperature and density also may act as a restriction to vertical movements of animals.Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pycnocline
Pycnoclines become unstable when their Richardson number drops below 0.25. (…)This can produce Kelvin-Helmholtz instability, resulting in a turbulence which leads to mixing.
The opposing fresh and saltwater streams sometimes flow smoothly, one above the other. But when the velocity difference reaches a certain threshold, vigorous turbulence results, and the salt and fresh water are mixed. Tidal currents, which act independently of estuarine circulation, also add to the turbulence, mixing the salt and fresh waters to produce brackish water in the estuary.Source: http://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/feature/where-the-rivers-meet-the-sea
“Anaxagoras brought philosophy and the spirit of scientific inquiry from Ionia to Athens. His observations of the celestial bodies and the fall of meteorites led him to form new theories of the universal order. He attempted to give a scientific account of eclipses, meteors, rainbows, and the sun, which he described as a mass of blazing metal, larger than the Peloponnese. He was the first to explain that the moon shines due to reflected light from the sun. He also said that the moon had mountains and believed that it was inhabited. The heavenly bodies, he asserted, were masses of stone torn from the earth and ignited by rapid rotation. He explained that, though both sun and the stars were fiery stones, we do not feel the heat of the stars because of their enormous distance from earth. He thought that the earth is flat and floats supported by 'strong' air under it and disturbances in this air sometimes causes earthquakes.”Cited source: Burnet J. (1892) Early Greek Philosophy A. & C. Black, London
“For the earliest extant manuscript [of the Qur’an] to have undergone extensive analysis, radiocarbon dating gives "a 68% probability of belonging to the period between AD 614 to AD 656…”Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-e-b-lumbard/new-light-on-the-history-_b_7864930.html
Mr. Habbal,
Here is the text
"The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."
Sahih Bukhari 4:54:537"
There is no evidence that one wing has a disease and the other wing has the cure for that disease.
It might be that we derive certain treatments from insects, such as the fly. There is no evidence that one is well advised to "dip it in the drink" because the fly can carry a wide variety of pathogens, and antidotes to those pathogens have not been found on one wing of the fly or anyplace else on they fly.
You are engaging in fallacious thinking. If you do not understand how your reasoning is fallacious then I invite you to study logical fallacies and how to make an argument that avoids them.
Brother Osama questions the validity of this Hadith here:
The Hadith of the fly is not a Mutawatir one
http://www.answering-christianity.com/hadiths_of_the_fly.htm
The topic of this thread is "There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an" and that is the topic I intend to address here.
Note, the moon, mercury, venus, sun, mars, jupiter, and saturn were treated the same in terms of motion and were all considered planets of the earth.
Also visit this article: What
about the sun
"running" (different
from the "sun's orbit" or "orbit of the sun" in other Noble Verses)
in Noble Verse 36:38?
A must-watch video: Scientists today believe that our galaxy is currently traveling towards a Black Hole and Star Vega. So the sun, which is the mother of our Solar System, will not just exist forever. There will come a time where it will come to a halt in both motion and light. Also, the Glorious Quran [1] declares that the earth is: 1- Spherical. 2- Suspended in Space. 3- Rotating around itself. (emphasis on dahaha and its derivatives) 4- Is traveling in Space. 5- Also, all celestial bodies are Yaa'rujoon (traveling in orbits) in space. Another Video: The countless orbits in the Universe, and the day-layer reveals the sun's brightness [2] [3] [4] [5].
A STUNNING Hadith [1] [2] [3] [4] from Prophet Muhammad regarding the rising and setting POINTS:
|