HELP: Imran's fatherhood in the Quran. I'm a muslim and i don't find the rebutta

[SlimEssid]

Salam waalaykom wa rahmat ALLAH wa baraketou,

I'm a tunisian muslim, and i'm quite worried in these few days, because i can't find a rebuttal to the article "Imran's fatherhood" wrotten by Sam Shamoun in anwering-islam. The problem is that I don't find any rebuttal at all dealing with this issue.

I have no problem understanding the "Mary sister of Harun" thing, but it's the rest that bothers me, like the fact that according to our holy scripture, Imran's wife was Mary's mother.

Please help me find a rebuttal to that article, or if there is one, give me a link.

Thank you very much.

[Black Muslim]

I don't get it ! The wife of Umran who is the father of Mary - Peace upon them both - has to her mother . Common sense ! Am I missing something ?

[Sama]

Assalam alaikum

Brother, you know arabic, you have no problem, the article is to criticise translation only

we examined the verses affiliating Jesus’ mother Mary with Imran as his biological daughter (Surah 3:35 and 66:12). While analyzing the first verse, we demonstrated how some English translators of the Qur’an made vain efforts to interpret Mary’s relation to Imran metaphorically and suggested inaccurate and misleading translations to support their arguments. With the help of the context of Surah 66 we also showed that Mary’s identification as Imran’s daughter in verse 12 was meant to be literal rather than metaphorical. In addition to these two verses, Imran’s name occurs in the entire Qur’an for the third and last time in Surah 3:33, where he is introduced as an important patriarch along with Adam, Noah, and Abraham. In this second article we shall focus on Imran’s presentation in the Qur’an as the father of a progeny and try to explain how his being the father of a progeny is associated with his being the husband of Mary’s biological mother. 

Can you identify your problem ?

The article is of 0 value for me !

[zulfiqarchucknorris]

there are 2 different marys. One is mary, the virgin, the mother of jesus. the other is miriam, sometimes known as mary, sister of moses.

[SlimEssid]

I know the difference between Mary, the mother of Jesus (PBUH) and Mary, sister of Moses (PBUH) thank you, I'm not that stupid :p

Christians say that prophet Muhammad (PBUH) confused the 2 Marys in the quran.

I just want a rebuttal. specially about sura 3:33. I didn't find any rebuttal and it worries me.

[Egyptian]

Don't worry ... the point was cleared in another thread

please..check the following link ,

http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,88.msg231.html#msg231

peace

[SlimEssid]

Don't worry ... the point was cleared in another thread

please..check the following link ,

http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,88.msg231.html#msg231

peace

thank you brother.

[QuranSearchCom]

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Egyptian and everyone,

Thank you dear brother Egyptian for the nice rebuttal.  I have added a link to your post in Sam Shamoun's rebuttals section, AI's general rebuttals section, and Rebuttals to all of the alleged contradictions in the Noble Quran section.

May Allah Almighty bless you akhi.  If you dear brother, and this is for all brothers and sisters here, have more refutations that you want me to link to the site, then please don't hesitate to let me know.  I don't get to read all of the posts, unfortunately.  So things might slip from me.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[Sama]

assalam alaikum
i found another rebuttal here:http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2010/05/re.html

The critics point out that Aaron, the brother of Moses, came before the time of Mary and then allege a Quranic error.

The problem for the critics is that this has already been explained by Muhammed (PBUH) as an idiom (a figure of speech). Muhammed (PBUH) explained this Quranic reference by saying “the (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of apostles and pious persons who had gone before them." [1]

So there is no anachronistic error here, it is simply an error on the part of the critics due to their lack of knowledge concerning the explanatory material by Muhammed (PBUH) related to the Quran.

So in short, this is not to be taken literally, Muhammad knew Aaron predated Mary. Sadly, the critics jump to a literal view of this verse despite Muhammad’s explanation showing the verse to be an idiom (figure of speech)

To deal with this claim thoroughly let us focus on some Christian missionaries who pad this claim with other references or points of argumentation.

1. The first appendum is that the Christians of Najran were the ones who objected to the title “sister of Harun”, thus the critic claims this intimates idioms of such a nature were not in use in the past. The critic wants PROOF showing past communities using such phraseology.

Well, this clearly highlights the critic’s (as well as the Christians of Najran’s) lack of Biblical knowledge as the Bible proves Muhammed to be correct in saying people of the past gave names based on the apostles and pious personalities who had gone before them.

In the Bible, Jesus is described as the son of David, David had certainly lived/died before Jesus yet Jesus is described as the son of David in the BIBLE, thus proving the use of such names (ie Muhammed is proven to be correct by he Bible). The Bible came before Muhammed and represents the mindset and customs of the people of the past, thus it shows Muhammed’s explanation to be historically accurate.

The Bible supports Muhammed’s expnation and shows idioms of such a nature were in vogue (in use) in the past:

Example 1

Bible shows the “daughter of Aaron” was used as an idiom to describe Elizabeth, though Elizabeth was not the literal daughter of Aaron:

…he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth." [Luke 1:5, RSV]

Example 2

Jesus is described as the son of David despite not being his literal son!

And the crowds that went before him and that followed him shouted, "Hosanna to the Son of David!...[Matthew 21:9 RSV]


Example 3

The Quran also shows the use of such idioms as the past Prophet Hud is described as the brother of the people of A’ad (to whom he was sent)

And unto (the tribe of) A'ad (We sent) their brother, Hud… [Qur'an 7:65]

Example 4 (the most relevant pertaining to Surah 19:28)

Jesus in the Gospel of Mark 3:35 teaches us that whoever does the will of God is the brother of Jesus.

Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother. (Mark 3:35 RSV)

If a lady in 2010 (who does the will of God) is the sister of Jesus then we can clearly see that Jesus himself used this form of idiom that Muhammed spoke of.

So if a God-fearing women such as Sarah (wife of Abraham) or Mary Magdelene can be described as the “sisters” of Jesus due to their submission to the Will of God then the Virgin Mary can certainly be described as the sister of Aaron!

The example in Mark 3:35 shows that Jesus ( a person of the past) used the SAME idiomatic expression which we find in Surah 19:28.

So it is clear that Muhammed’s explanation makes historical sense. The critics simply highlight their lack of knowledge pertaining to the figures of speech and titles in use in the past Abrahamic communities.

2. They claim Muhammad made the explanation up because he was caught out to be in error.

This argumentation is not backed by the facts but is based on conjecture on the part of the critic.

The fact is Muhammad’s explanation is historically accurate and backed by the Bible! So clearly he did not make an explanation up on the spot based on a whim but his explanation is found to be solid and supported by history.

Also, Muhammed was regarded as the trustworthy so it does not follow his character to make a deceptive explanation up.

3. The critics pad their claim with irrelevant information/references


One such reference is from Ibn Kathir’s commentary on the verse 19:28:

It was narrated from Ibn Jarir, narrated from Yaqub, narrated from Ibn U’laya, narrated from Sa’id Ibn Abi Sadaqa, narrated from Muhammad Ibn Sireen who stated that he was told that Ka’b said the verse that reads, "O sister of Harun (Aaron)!" (of Sura 19:28) does not refer to Aaron the brother of Moses. Aisha replied to Ka’b, "you have lied."
Ka’b responded, "O Mother of the believers! If the prophet, may Allah’s prayers be upon him, has said it, and he is more knowledgeable, then this is what he related. Besides, I find the difference in time between them (Jesus and Moses) to be 600 years." He said that she remained silent.

Bizarrely some missionaries are attempting to pad their claim by utlizing the misunderstanding of Aisha concerning this issue as “evidence” for their claim.

Aisha’s misunderstanding of the issue is only due to the fact that Muhammed nor her fellow companions (students of Muhammad) had yet explained this issue to her. So Aisha took the verse literally as she had not yet heard of Muhammad’s explanation of it to be an idiom.

The fact is, in this reference, Ka’b confirms Muhammed did not think Mary was the (literal) sister of Aaron is enough to pour cold water on the critics baseless claims. Thus we further realise that the Quran is not claiming Mary to be the literal sister of the brother of Moses (Aaron).

Moreover, this tradition also shows that Ka’b himself knew there was a huge difference of years between Mary and Aaron prior to Muhammad’s explanation.

In addition we also note that Aisha’s silence points to her acknowledgement of her error (misunderstanding), her misunderstanding was only due to the fact that at this instance Aisha had not had the verse explained to her by the Prophet or any student of the Prophet but once the verse was explained to her by Ka’b (using the teachings of Muhammad) she accepted the explanation and acknowledged her error (inferred by her silence).

It is hardly scholarly to jump on the misunderstanding of one Muslim (Aisha) and try to build a case of “Quranic error” based on this despite Muhammad’s explanation of the verse to be an idiom. Such is the desperation of some critics, sadly the critics who have gone to this length are the Christian missionaries. Hardly the most Christian or honest method of reason!

4. The critics play on the name “Imran”

The critics point to the fact that the name of Aaron’s father is Amran (Imran) and Islamic sources call Mary the daughter of Imran. The critic then claims this is support for their allegation of anachronistic error levelled at the Quran.

However, the critics miss the fact that the name of Mary’s father was in fact Imran thus the Islamic sources do not support their claim as the Islamic sources are completely correct and accurate to call Mary the daughter of Imran as she was the daughter of Imran!

It just so happens that BOTH Aaron and Mary had fathers named “Imran” but Muhammed pointed out that the two were not the same person in his explanation of Surah 19:28 [1] so it would be unscholarly to ignore Muhammad’s explanation in favour of convoluted conjecture.

George Sale points to the fact that Muhammed knew Aaron and Mary lived during difference time periods:

Sale wrote:
“it manifestly appears that Mohammed well knew and asserted that Moses preceded Jesus several ages." [2] Thus it is clear to Sale that Muhammed did not believe Mary and Aaron to be literal brother and sister or even contemporaries. Why can’t the Christian missionaries/critics see the obvious?

But though Mohammed may be supposed to have been ignorant enough in ancient history and chronology, to have committed so gross a blunder; yet I do not see how it can be made out from the words of the Koran. For it does not follow, because two persons have the same name, and have each a father and brother who bear the same names, that they must therefore necessarily be the same whereby it manifestly appears that Mohammed well knew and asserted that Moses preceded Jesus several ages… [2]

It must be observed that though the Virgin Mary is called in the Koran, the sister of Aaron, yet she is nowhere called the sister of Moses. [2]

And the commentators accordingly fail not to tell us, that there had passed about one thousand eight hundred years between Amran the father of Moses and Amrean the father of the Virgin Mary [2]

The more deviant critic who knows of the fact that both Mary and Aaron had fathers named “Imran” holds this crucial information away from the audience in order to misdirect the audience down the path of error.


Summary

Muhammad explains the Quranic reference (Sura 19:28) to be an idiomatic expression rather than something to be taken literally. Muhammad’s explanation is backed up historically as Jesus uses a similar idiomatic expression.

George Sale suggests it is obvious Muhammad knew that Mary was not a contemporary of Aaron/Moses, early Muslim commentaries point to this fact too!

The critic has no evidence for his/her claim but is reliant on conjecture and interpolation.



Appendix 1

Some of the citations concerning “Imran” used by the critic are listed here so the reader can familiarise themselves with the claim of the critics/Christian missionaries:

Quran 3:35-36

Quran 66:12

Sahih al-Bukhari 3769

References

[1] In Sahih Muslim, no. 5326

[2] George Sale, The Koran, IX Edition of 1923, London, p. 38.

[Black Muslim]

Indeed , Sama . It was explained 1400 years ago but these clowns think they discovered something new !

[Egyptian]

assalamalaikom you all brothers...


first I hope brother Osama merge or move that thread into the other thread or section talking about the same topic.......

thank you ,Sama ,for the link,though I think the writer's reasoning is faulty...

The problem for the critics is that this has already been explained by Muhammed (PBUH) as an idiom (a figure of speech). Muhammed (PBUH) explained this Quranic reference by saying “the (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of apostles and pious persons who had gone before them."

First : The prophet's saying doesn't mean "sister of Harun " would be  "an idiom" but it means ,Mary had a literal brother whose literal name was "Harun",and that is no wonder as the jew(and others too) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of apostles and pious persons who had gone before them.

So in short, this is not to be taken literally

The prophet (peace be upon him) explained it literally ,and It must be taken literally (more reasons to be mentioned in the following lines).

let us focus on some Christian missionaries who pad this claim with other references or points of argumentation.
1. The first appendum is that the Christians of Najran were the ones who objected to the title “sister of Harun”, thus the critic claims this intimates idioms of such a nature were not in use in the past. The critic wants PROOF showing past communities using such phraseology.

the Christians of Najran ,thought that the "Harun" mentioned in the verse, has to be the brother of Moses ,and the prophet corrected them ,that he wasn't. he was a literal brother to Mary ,ho had the same name.

It was narrated from Ibn Jarir, narrated from Yaqub, narrated from Ibn U’laya, narrated from Sa’id Ibn Abi Sadaqa, narrated from Muhammad Ibn Sireen who stated that he was told that Ka’b said the verse that reads, "O sister of Harun (Aaron)!" (of Sura 19:28) does not refer to Aaron the brother of Moses. Aisha replied to Ka’b, "you have lied."
Ka’b responded, "O Mother of the believers! If the prophet, may Allah’s prayers be upon him, has said it, and he is more knowledgeable, then this is what he related. Besides, I find the difference in time between them (Jesus and Moses) to be 600 years." He said that she remained silent.

first :the authenticity of that narration is classified as Hadith Munqati', A tradition that has a discontinuous chain of transmitters . and dubious.


وقال ابن جرير : حدثني يعقوب حدثنا ابن علية عن سعيد بن أبي صدقة عن محمد بن سيرين قال: نبئت أن كعباً قال: إن قوله: (( يَا أُخْتَ هَارُونَ )) ليس بهارون أخي موسى، قال: فقالت له عائشة : كذبت، قال: يا أم المؤمنين! إن كان النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قاله فهو أعلم وأخبر، وإلا فإني أجد بينهما ستمائة سنة، قال: فسكتت، وفي هذا التاريخ نظر ]. ثم أيضاً هو منقطع، قال محمد بن سيرين : نبئت. من الذي نبأه؟ فيه انقطاع


Second: assuming the narration as true, then Aisha misunderstood the meaning,surely she never heard of the explanation of the prophet to Sahabi Al Mughira Ibn Shu’ba,after his return from the christian community of Najran.

Sale wrote:
“it manifestly appears that Mohammed well knew and asserted that Moses preceded Jesus several ages."  Thus it is clear to Sale that Muhammed did not believe Mary and Aaron to be literal brother and sister or even contemporaries.

exactly ,and to elaborate:

First :we already know from the holy Quran that :


1- a succession of prophets came after Moses and before Jesus:

2:87 For, indeed, We vouchsafed unto Moses the divine writ and caused apostle after apostle to follow him; and We vouchsafed unto Jesus, the son of Mary, all evidence of the truth

Quran 5:46 Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests  by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.We prescribed for them in : a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and a wound for a wound. But, if anyone forgoes it, this shall be for him an expiation. Those who do not judge by what God has sent down are wrongdoers!And We sent after them in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard .


Quran 57:27 And We sent Noah and Abraham, and established in their line Prophethood and Revelation: and some of them were on right guidance. But many of them became rebellious transgressors.Then, in their wake, We followed them up with [others of] Our messengers and after them Jesus, son of Mary.



Quran 4:155 The followers of the Book ask you to bring down to them a book from heaven; so indeed they demanded of Moses a greater thing than that, for they said: Show us Allah manifestly; so the lightning overtook them on account of their injustice. Then they took the calf (for a god), after clear signs had come to them, but We pardoned this; and We gave to Musa clear authority.And We caused the Mount to tower above them at (the taking of) their covenant: and We bade them: Enter the gate, prostrate! and We bode them: Transgress not the Sabbath! and We took from them a firm covenant.Because of their breaking the charter, their disbelief in God´s signs their killing the prophets(after Mose) without any right to do so, and their saying: your hearts are covered over," instead, God has stamped them with their disbelief. They only believe a little and for their ingratitude and their saying against Mary serious, false charges to harm her reputation .That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him.


Second : The prophet said that no prophet appeared between him and Jesus :

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 651:
Narrated Abu Huraira:I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I am the nearest of all the people to the son of Mary, and all the prophets are paternal brothers, and there has been no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus)."

For it does not follow, because two persons have the same name, and have each a father and brother who bear the same names, that they must therefore necessarily be the same

Exactly..

It must be observed that though the Virgin Mary is called in the Koran, the sister of Aaron, yet she is nowhere called the sister of Moses. 

yes ... and that is a question directed at those who suggest "sister of Harun" as an idiom.....

not only it would be proper if they use metaphorical idiom of lineage ,to use "daughter of ....." instead of "sister of...." but also why hadn't they used "daughter or sister of Moses" who is far more important than Harun....


I would conclude the post with final words from some tafsirs that mention the literal understanding:

1-The great Tafsir "Al-Razi" wrote :

"sister of Harun" is suggested to be literal or metaphorical ,the literal is the most sound ,and the meaning would be ,that she had a literal righteous brother whose name was Harun ,and the Jews gave her the shame of being a sister of a righteous person and commit such shameful act of adultery...strengthen more the literal meaning is that ,it is known that the literal meaning is the rule and the exception is the metaphorical (that requires strong basis to resort to), also the same verse there is a mention of her father and mother as righteous, and that makes her Deserving more censure and condemnation. for having righteous brother and parents ,yet she commit such shameful adultery...


In Arabic:

 مختار فخر الدين الرازي:
 كان لها أخ يسمى هارون من صلحاء بني إسرائيل فعيرت به وهذا هو الأقرب لوجهين:
الأول: أن الأصل في الكلام الحقيقة, وإنما [كان]ظاهر الآية محمولا على حقيقتها لو كان لها أخ يسمى هارون.
الثاني: إنها أضيفت إليه[يعني أخوها] ووصف أبوها بالصلاح وحينئذ يصير التوبيخ أشد لأن من كان حال أبويه وأخيه هذه الحالة يكون صدور الذنب عنه أفحش]].


2- Tafsir Albahr Almoheet :by Ibn hyan alandalusi:

the sound meaning is that it was her close brother ,as they used to name themselves with the names of the prophets and righteous before them.


[ج] أثير الدين محمد بن يوسف ابن حيان الأندلسي(ت.745هـ) في البحر المحيط 6/186:
[[ (يا أخت هارون) الآية. الظاهر أنه أخوها الأقرب, وكانوا يسمون بأنبيائهم والصالحين قبلهم


3- Tafsir Alqurtubi: 

the meaning could be also that she had a literal brother whose name was Harun ,as lots of Jews liked to have that name ,as it was the name of the blessed Harun brother of Moses peace be upon them.

وقيل: كان لها أخ من أبيها اسمه هارون؛ لأن هذا الاسم كان كثيراً في بني إسرائيل تبركاً باسم هارون أخي موسى، وكان أمثل رجل في بني إسرائيل؛ قاله الكلبي


4- Tafsir alsamarqandi:

that could also mean,that she had a brother named "Harun" from her father not her mother ,the christian objected ,how could mary sister of Harun and between them 600 years ,and the prophet peace be upon him explained that Mary had a brother who was given the same name ,the prophet Harun had ...

ويقال كان لها أخ يقال له هارون من أبيها ولم يكن من أمها وذكر أن أهل الكتاب قالوا كيف تقولون إن مريم أخت هارون وكان بينهما ستمائة
 سنة فذكر ذلك لرسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - فقال: " إنهم كانوا يسمون بأسماء الأنبياء والصالحين عليهم السلام " يعني أن أخا مريم سُمِّي باسم هارون النبي عليه السلام



5- Tafsir alnisaburi:

the sound meaning is that she had a literal brother whose name was "Harun".

 فقيل: كان أخاها من أبيها من أمثل بين إسرائيل وهذا أظهر لأن حمل اللفظ على الحقيقة أولى من غيره


6- Tafsir Althaalebi: If the hadith of almughira is authentic ,then the meaning that she had a brother named "Harun" is the sound meaning.


 وما رواه المُغِيرة إنْ ثبت هو المعوَّلُ عليه


7- Tafsir Alsaadi:

the sound meaning is that she had a real brother name Harun,not the prophet Harun.

{ يَا أُخْتَ هَارُونَ } الظاهر، أنه أخ لها حقيقي، فنسبوها إليه، وكانوا يسمون بأسماء الأنبياء وليس هو هارون بن عمران أخا موسى، لأن بينهما قرونا كثيرة

Now Imam Abi elabbas Alqutubi ,refute those tafsirs who suggested the metaphorical meaning ,in his book "clarifying the difficulties in Sahih muslim collection"

he wrote :

the Hadith that was reported by Al Mughira Ibn Shu’ba "after returning from where the community of Najran" would refute clearly ,any saying in some books of tafsir that ,Mary was called "sister of harun" as an idiom ,denotes that she is supposed to be as pious as Harun....

[هـ] كلام أبي العباس القرطبي(ت.656هـ) في المفهم لما أشكل من كتاب مسلم 5/461:
[[ وحديث المغيرة يدل على أن مريم إنما سميت أخت هارون بأخ لها كان اسمه ذلك, ويُبطل قول من قال من المفسرين إنها إنما قيل لها ذلك لأنها شبهت بهارون أخي موسى في عبادته ونسكه


Any questions,comments ?

May Allah bless you brother Osama ,and all of you dear brothers and sisters..

[ali achinxo]

Mashallah brother egyptian. may Allah bless you. I really learned alot from your post. Allah Ya3tikall3fia

[Egyptian]

Jazakallahu khairun ,Bro Ali...and welcome to the blog .

[QuranSearchCom]

As'salamu Alaikum dear Brothers and Sisters in Islam,

I am going to go through the board this weekend, and move the topics to their appropriate sections, and also merge some of them with other related ones.  I know brother Egyptian made a request for one of them already.

And I would like to join the brothers who have commended brother Egyptian for his vast knowledge.  Masha'Allah akhi Egyptian, you are a valuable additions to this board, and a wealth of knowledge for the Muslims, and a great servant for Allah Almighty and His Divine Religion, Islam.  May Allah Almighty bless you, akhi.  Ameen.

Keep up the good work dear brothers and sisters in Islam.  May Allah Almighty bless you!  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[Sama]

Jazakum Allah khaira Egyptian and everyone