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Messages - New World Order Cleanse

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31
Osama, you're trying to muddy the waters and create confusion. I am not at all interested in Becca, nor am I really interested in Petra.

I am primarily trying to show that Mecca did not exist at Muhammad's time, of which the evidence is absolutely LEGION. You religion is a psychological operation conducted by the Abbasids, information for which you can discover in Gibson's excellently presented documentary, which has recently become very popular in Bangladesh.

I think I remember Idris, I believe I posed a question to him last year and then you deleted my account and deleted my post to him specifically, whilst keeping all my other posts on the system. I just can't take you seriously.

32
I'm a total noob on this subject but i've found an article which may help...

http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2016/10/refuting-claim-petra-was-qibla-before.html?m=1

I've read literally every single source on the internet, including this one and its variants.

33
ببطن مكة

ب = in

بطن = belly, tummy, deep.  We say بطن حامل  (BATN HAMIL), which means PREGNANT BELLY.  We also say في باطن الارض  (FEE BATIN ALARD), which means DEEP IN THE EARTH.

مكة = Mecca.


Your entire case is based on conjecture and Islam-hating bias.  As I said in my first reply to you.  Islam crushed the civilizations that surrounded it.  This is why the Islam-hating infidels are desperately trying to disprove Islam.  You seem to be another infidel, but a very stupid one.  MECCA in this Noble Verse refers to the name of the City of Mecca.  The Noble Verse most certainly assumes the name of the Holy City to have been well known by the people, especially that the Glorious Quran was revealed there, and Islam began there, and Prophet Muhammad was from there.  Mecca being the city was a given!  And the Noble Verse is directly linked to the Prophecy of opening the City of Mecca:

www.answering-christianity.com/10000.htm


When we say Alexandria, Virginia, do we mean Alexandria in Egypt or Alexandria in the state of Virginia in the USA?  When Allah Almighty mentions Mecca in Noble Verse 48:24, does He mean Petra?  Of course He meant Mecca as it was already a given to all Muslims there, since liberating the Holy City of Mecca from the infidels was their final destination.  And Petra was never ever called Mecca.

Every time you get soundly refuted, you give a very stupid answer.  Show us where Mecca means destruction.  I am waiting......

You have a bad habit of not reading replies properly. I said go to the lexicon, "Mekka" is a simple noun meaning "destruction". Jeez.

34
Quran 48:24

وَهُوَ ٱلَّذِى كَفَّ أَيْدِيَهُمْ عَنكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ عَنْهُم بِبَطْنِ مَكَّةَ مِنۢ بَعْدِ أَنْ أَظْفَرَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ ۚ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرًا
And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makka, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.

Peace.

This is the one instance of this root of "Mekka". By comparative Quranic analysis of "Bibatni" and the lexicons, "Bibatni Mekka" translates to "belly of destruction", not "midst of Mekka (city)". Mecca today is not in a belly-like structure, and so fails to impress on these sparse descriptions within the Quran.

Your religion is a psychological operation, look up what that is. The 9/11 inside job is a great example of a psychological operation that is easily demonstrable.

35
NWO cleanse, take your time, take a deep breath, get comfortable and write a summary...it would be easier for brother Albarra and the others to discuss your points...
I finished the video and it has ample problems.  All wishful thinking, conjecture and bias towards Petra.  Again, there are points that you just can't refute:

And I would just like to zoom in here, and look at it carefully and the presented evidence carefully. Wishful thinking and conjecture? It's a nuclear bomb of the greatest order on this religion, found nowhere in the Quran.

Bias towards Petra? Yes, I don't agree entirely with how he presented the video, he should have stuck to macro-historical data (my opinion), there is no macro-historical data supporting Mecca, it's all micro. All.

36
I mean i really hope his doubts are cleared...

I used to follow the official narrative of Islam, and then went through severe sleep loss and depression when I discovered all of this material.

I couldn't reconcile the contradictions, and indeed they cannot be reconciled much like Trinitarian Christianity cannot, they clash too strongly with reality.

37
NWO cleanse, take your time, take a deep breath, get comfortable and write a summary...it would be easier for brother Albarra and the others to discuss your points...

I'll do it for him, akhi.  Here is the video and here are the points:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inJ1mCIsz5A&t=53s

1-  Mecca called "the mother of all cities" refers to it being the center of all trading routes.  This is false because Petra was the center of the trading routes.

RESPONSE:  Your author, NWO Cleanse, - Sam Gerrans, - imposed this meaning on the Quranic term to the Holy City of Mecca.



2-  Mecca was not found on any map until around year 900 AD, 300 years after Prophet Muhammad came. 

RESPONSE:  No proof.  Yet, we have ample physical proofs that Mecca existed far earlier than this.  See above.



3-  Mecca does not have any substantial valley or mountain surrounding it, "which is part of the Quranic concept of a holy site"??

RESPONSE:  Where did your Sam Gerrans come up with this lie??  The Glorious Quran does not give this criteria or condition for any holy site!  Also, Mecca does have surrounding mountains, - MOUNT ARAFAT is used in the pilgrimage, - and it does have the underground stream of Zamzam, which fills the Well of Zamzam and it sustains life there.

Then he goes on to say that Petra has deep routes and that supposedly matches the Glorious Quran's "deep routes" statement about Muslims coming from all over the world to do Hajj (pilgrimage).  And he talked about the doomed civilizations that were mentioned in the Glorious Quran were all located in Northern Arabia. 

RESPONSE:  The Arabs in central Arabia were fresh and had no corrupt scriptures like the Jews and Christians were.  They were ready for a new Prophet and new Scripture, and this is one of the reasons why Allah Almighty chose them:

‏34:44 ومااتيناهم من كتب يدرسونها وماارسلنا اليهم قبلك من نذير

[034:044] Although, prior to you We did not give them books they could study كتب يدرسونها, nor did We send a warner towards them وماارسلنا اليهم قبلك من نذير.

This would not apply to the northern Arabs around Petra, because they were under the Christians' rule at the time.  The central Arabs were nomadic people and had no scriptures and no Prophets.



Silencing Mr. Sam Gerrans:

I finished the video and it has ample problems.  All wishful thinking, conjecture and bias towards Petra.  Again, there are points that you just can't refute:

1-  Muslims by the MILLIONS flock to pilgrimage to Mecca, not to Petra.  If Muslims were flocking to Petra by the THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS during the early days of Islam, then they would not be flocking today to Mecca.  And we would certainly have a record for it (Petra), which we do not.


2-  The graves of Prophet Muhammad and many of his companions are in Medina and Mecca and near by lands.  Yes, some are in Northern Arabia due to the battles with the Romans and Persians, and many ended up settling there.  But the Prophet's grave is in Medina!  Can you refute that?


3-  The four Islamic Rightly Guided Caliphs, Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman and Ali ruled in Medina.  Ali later migrated to Iraq, but he was elected in Medina and began his rule in Medina.  Uthman was killed in Medina.  Omar was assassinated by the Persians in Medina.  Abu Bakr fought the apostates from Medina.  Ali migrated to Iraq from Medina.  The Muslims liberated Mecca with 10,000 Muslims army.  And it's even prophesied in the Bible:

www.answering-christianity.com/10000.htm

Nothing mentioned about Petra.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Peace.

1. That's a good point, first one you made in fact. What we can infer from the "mother of all cities" is that it is a place of significance, whether this is a major trading destination or a center of pilgrimage, it doesn't matter. Mecca is insignificant, since it was ignored by all cartographers, so it cannot be the subject at this juncture. After all, you do not make a map of the USA whilst awkwardly ignoring New York City... right? It's an iron paradox, you might as well be a Pastafarian at this point.

2. Maps can be found in Gibson's work.

3. Inconclusive and uninteresting point by Sam Gerran's. And it's not a lie, read carefully: "no substantial mountains", google what a valley looks like.

And about the northern arabs... Again, inconclusive and uninteresting point by Sam Gerrans; I focus mainly on the meaty stuff. For example I haven't even focused on the Qiblah's and that's a very meaty topic and makes your religion look very unsightly historically; it is overkill and I didnt really need to focus on it to make my points since the evidence is already overwhelming.

Your next three points are rubbish, so is that article. You again underestimate the power of aristochracy, you can brainwash a nation if you have enough funding and military power; I talked about it earlier with government funded 9/11, zionist media and the obviously fake footprints of Abraham (to mirror the obviously fake graves of Muhammad et al), I am not going to repeat myself. If anyone wants intelligently presented debates/rebuttals between King and Gibson (that kinda stuff) read: https://www.academia.edu/34569516/Response_to_David_King_with_attached_article. Both sides are presented, not low quality info sourced from a chat forum (lol).

Maybe there are people who have some integrity on this forum, like me a year ago - I right for them, wherever they may be.

38
Brother Shaad,

NWO didn't respond to us because he feels stupid.

I challenge him where is a verse that mentioned about Petra and Muhammad (phub) in the Qur'an, but he  declined.

I would like to return the question to you and ask: where in the Quran does it say that Muhammad was from Mecca? The Quran itself uses very few place names.

39
Quote
It's weak evidence and ignores the big picture: spurious, extremely vague literatures.

Vague literatures?  I don't see millions flocking to pilgrimage to Petra every year.  I see them flocking to Mecca.  Your theory would be valid if literally all of the Arabs in the entire Middle East were permanently drunk or stoned.  To have millions of Muslims flock to Mecca every single year testifies to the Truthfulness of Islam's literature about Islam indeed began from Mecca, and Its Prophet was Muhammad, peace be upon him. 



How is the fabrication possible?

How could Hajj (pilgrimage) be fabricated when the Holy City of Mecca is the VERY CORE of it?

Do you have anything else to add?  I am getting tired of your BS.

Osama

I'm not here to convince everyone, it's my Quranic duty to preach against real and potential idols, like your religion. I want to please my maker.

I'm going to say it another time: your city is not historical, you've activated full-on Trinitarian Christian mode: fingers in both ears.

How could they pull it off? Let me ask you, how did they pull off 9/11? You underestimate how much power royalty has.

For your exact answer, it's in the documentary and involves the classic historical formula of: victors win war, victors rewrite history. Hence the burning down of libraries and mass censorship that ensued. But I guess you're not gonna watch it, that's ok, I don't think anyone takes you seriously anyway.

You have this flowery version of your religion's history which is false - the true history is ugly.

40
Okay Mr. Quranist, but can you give me a verse that Muhammad (phub) was born in Petra?

Stay on topic please.

41
Quote
You are assuming your historical foundations from an external literature.

Above, I updated my post and gave links that contain ancient writings that prove Mecca was Baca.  The links again are:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2254.msg10005.html#msg10005
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2254.msg10009.html#msg10009



As to proofs for the "external literature", we have the graves of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and many of his companions in locations in Saudi Arabia and in northern Arabia where they died after opening the lands from the Persians and the Romans.  The literature that proves the location where Islam started, and what was its Prophet's name, and how Islam systematically spread throughout Arabia and beyond is quite solid.  You have a disease called "everything outside the Quran is false".

We have evidence from graves, to physical locations of homes, battles, tribes, etc... and ample literature that thoroughly prove Islam began in Mecca and took off from Mecca.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

It's weak evidence and ignores the big picture: spurious, extremely vague literatures. I might as well he a trinitarian based off of John 1:1, it's really unimpressive. Read this excerpt from Gibson's book:

"Muslims  commonly  believe  that  ancient  Mecca  was  a  major  city  on  the caravan  routes  between  the  kingdoms  of  Arabia.  However,  history  does  not prove  this  to  be  so.  One  would  think  that  kingdoms  like  Yemen,  which  is immediately  south  of  present  day  Mecca,  and  those  north  of  Mecca  would substantiate  Mecca’s  existence,  but  this  is  not  the  case.  The  ancient  kingdoms of  Yemen  utilized  the  skill  of  writing  since  the  10th  century  BC  (Kitchen, 1994,  page  135)  and  yet,  with  the  thousands  of  inscriptions,  graffiti  and  other writings  that  have  survived  to  this  day,  there  is  not  a  single  mention  of  the city  of  Mecca. Looking  north  from  Mecca  to  the  cities  of  Dedan,  Teyma  and Khaybar,  thousands  of  inscriptions,  graffiti  and  other  writings  have  survived to  this  day,  and  once  again  we  have  not  a  single  mention  of  the  city  of  Mecca in any literature prior to 900 AD."

Literary evidence works against you when you deal with the case at hand appropriately, not plucking rare, vague texts.

And you completely blanked the maps, did the cartograpgers brain-fart seven times in a row when drawing their maps? Mysteriously skipping Mecca, the supposed Mother of all cities?

And you blanked the archaeological evidence, another huge piece of the puzzle since it's hard for politicians/later imams to fake. When I go to Petra and I stick a spade in the ground, I'm gonna dig something up, because it was the Umm-Al-Qura described at 42:7 inside the Quran: it was the New York of Arabia, the Dubai of Arabia, the London of Arabia  There are thousands of artifacts from Petra on auction. This is the sort of evidence one needs.

Can I say the same thing with Mecca? No, I cannot. Mecca's not historical.

You also have the footprints of Ibrahim near the Ka'ba, this is embarrasing. They are insulting your intelligence. Your religion is a psyop and is not in the Quran.

It's such a shame that you've got such a pure revelation, but you choose to sell your mental faculties to an unknown, highly questionable priesthood.

42
Again you'd have to explain the Letters,etc and not be ignorant of History,and also explain Ibn Kalbis book of Idols which is a Pre-Islamic book referencing nabatean Gods and I provided my proof and you only provided a video only cherrypicking from the Quran.

Again you'd have to explain the Letters,etc and not be ignorant of History,and also explain John the Baptist's book at 1:1 which is a reliable Biblical account refercning Jesus as God and I provided my proof and you only provided a video only cherrypicking from the Bible.

 ;D

43
Are you a Quranist?

Peace.

Yes, a Quranist in the sense that I reject any later libraries of literature that claim canonical status in lieu of the Quran. You can look up "Quranite" to see the general crowd I come from.

44
Peace.

Mecca is not the same place as Macoraba.

No, there are no statues at Mecca depicting the Nabatean Gods. There just isn't. Because it's not there. It's just not. Just like the sky isn't green.

I haven't got the time for this; watch the documentary, or see the link I posted above to Youtube. Or read the book if you have the attention span.

45
You are assuming your historical foundations from an external literature. The hadith was invented by an oligarchy consisting of very few (ingeneous might I add) men well-versed in the art of realpolitik; God did not create the Quran for an invented library of hearsay with its own complex, insane science of authentication to replace it.

May I please request that you do not comment until you have watched the documentary, or read the book, please.

The word Mecca appears once inside the Quran and when it does, does not reference today's Mecca, and ironically the word Salaah does not appear anywhere near the one instance of this root.

Your religion is patchy, incorrect and highly unaesthetic. I cannot cite websites because you'll just ban me, so I'll provide a Youtube video which will provide a window into the main body of work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inJ1mCIsz5A&t=53s.

I do not heil from any sect, I simply seek to spread the Quranic teachings, see my previous thread.

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