the issue doesn't merit a heated debate.... neither merit a debate ,really..
I disagree . Tolerating different opinions about things which can be interrupted differently is a thing . But opposing clear signs of Quran or sayings of the prophet is not something to be tolerated . That is the reason why all those ignorant individuals show on TV and say things like Jews and Christians will enter paradise along with Muslims !
though I disagree with his approach to the matter ,still it is not a matter would get him outside the fold of islam ......
Nobody said so .
Quran 3:33-34: "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds. DESCENDANTS, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing"
^Read it again please, it clearly calls Adam, Noah, Family of Abraham, Imran descendants from others! Allah is never short of words! Allah chose Adam, over who? And then Allah says Adam was a descendant. If Adam was a descendant and he is the first one to be like us (human) then it must logically follow that who he came from is not like-us. So am I twisting any verse or am I just reading the verse and stating what it clearly says? So am I interpreting the Quran to suit my desires, or are you?
My God ! How do you come up with these ideas ?!
Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Ibrahim - peace upon them all - from the rest of mankind . Meaning they are above others for they were chosen to be prophets and deliver the message of Allah to people . And in the second sign Allah says they are descendants FROM EACH OTHER . The order is Adam , Noah , and Ibrahim peace upon them all .
Now, personally I don't like using hadiths to support a claim based on the history they have of corruption.
I was right indeed . I'm dealing with someone abandoning half of Islam . And you are absolutely not someone to say that Hadith is corrupted .
but when a hadith goes against the Quranic teaching, I am sorry-I side with the Quran.
Contradiction only exists in your mind . Before jumping the gun , think "What's the explanation of this ? Maybe I misunderstood" .
Okay, I am glad you recognize that Adam was created in stages and it wasn't an instant process in paradise. That was the point I was trying to make.
I really
despise people putting words in my mouth . Father Adam WAS created to live in paradise and then sin and repent . Wither it's the real paradise or a paradise on Earth doesn't matter here . The story is in the Quran which you claim to follow .
We see this through ALL of creation.
If you mean creatures forming in the wombs - or eggs - of their mothers then yes . As for the myth that a dinosaur became a bird because it was trying to catch flies , I told you already .
Where did you get the stage of sand/mud/clay from?
From the sayings of the prophet peace upon him AND Quran which you claim to follow alone .
Now 'perfection' is not a semantics issue.
I don't care if you have problems understanding it in language or logic . I already explained .
Quran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
^So Allah made everything he created better. And creation from clay is actually recognized in abiogenesis. We actually think clay brought forth the necessary conditions for the first cell to form.
God perfected what he created WHEN he created it . But you want to force the idea that it MUST mean evolving from something to another .
Quran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.
^After BEGINNING creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of semen. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.
I'll just repeat :
Correct me if wrong . The first one says that Allah perfected what he created which means that whichever he created was done in a perfect way . No evolution . The same one says that the beginning of creating mankind was of mud . Here , we might have two explanations :
1 - The meant "Human" is our father Adam . In that case , his creation was of mud . No evolution . After that , the lineage after Adam - peace upon him - was through sexual intercourse of husband and wife . No evolution . Then , this sperm in the womb of the mother is formed by God's will and then a spirit is blown in it . Again , no evolution .
2 - The meant "Human" is mankind in general . In this case , the first stage means our father Adam - peace upon him - himself whom was created of mud . And then , the lineage of mankind was through menial water (Sperm) . Again , this water was formed and then given a soul by Allah . Yet again , no evolution .
Can this verse be any more clear? But, instead you choose to twist it so that it shows that Adam/mankind was not proportioned after the creation sexual reproduction? Instead you say that the breathing of the soul is referring to Adam's children even though the verse says 'HIM' (meaning Adam) rather than 'you'?
No one is twisting the meanings other than you . And no one is ignoring what the other says except you ! If you're so weak at language and logic then that's your problem and not ours . If we really go on with you and say that the verses may have different meanings then the sayings of the prophets are the bottom line because they explain in detail the creation of father Adam . Again , if you accuse Hadith of corruption while you know 0 information about it , that's your problem . Another funny thing is : People talk to me about not forcing my opinion on others - And this is nothing to have an opinion about - while you're trying to force yours on us . You don't even say "This might be an explanation" . No , you're saying "This is the ONLY explanation" .
Do you know why verse 32:9 is referring to Adam? Because it mirrors this verse (15:28-29) which is clearly referring to Adam, so 'HIM' is referring to Adam being proportioned and THEN consequently 'you' get hearing and consciousness.
Again , your ignorance is your own problem . And God himself answers you here :
it is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].
2.) If the Quran was talking about Adam's progeny, why didn't the Quran say "THEM" or "you" instead of 'him'? "and then we proportioned THEM/you (the progeny of Adam)", The Quran said no such thing. So you must accept that it is referring to the first one to take on the final human shape.
YET again , your ignorance of language is your own problem . The verse says "Human" and that's called a noun of a type . Meaning that "Human" here means everything named human . And saying "Him" doesn't contradicts a thing except for those who see contradictions in any and everything just for the sake of showing off .
Secondly, the verse says "perfected", أَحْسَنَ, which means to make Good. That means Allah's creation was made to be good from its original through a process.
Already explained .
3- The verse meant that Adam was created through a process of perfection that initially involved clay. (the verse says BEGAN the creation of Adam from clay-signifying a process).
Alright , I'll explain again for reminding benefits the believers . The verse says Allah perfected what he created . You want to force the meaning that it MUST mean evolving things after creating them . But ones who know a few things about Arabic OR English know that it isn't necessary . Even when I was a kid of 8 years old and used to read this sign , I used to think "It means that God created the creatures perfectly" and no idea of evolution ever hit someone I know . THEN - and you think writing in capital makes a difference - Allah says that he started creating human out of mud . Here , there are two possible meanings for the word "Human" . The first is that it means Adam - peace upon him - and in that case evolution has no room . God started forming father Adam out of mud , and the story is mentioned in Hadith which you despise so much because you don't know the first thing about it . The other meaning is that "Human" is a "Type noun" which means all mankind . In this case , the beginning of creating man means the first one being Adam peace upon him . Now , when we move to the next sign it says that Allah - after starting forming human out of mud - made his lineage نسل made of water that is sperm . Meaning that God made human reproduce through sexual intercourse . Let's take both meanings again . If the human here is meant to be father Adam then it means that God made his lineage made of sperm which is true with father Adam and mother Eve both AND their children after them . If I take the other meaning , it's also correct because the lineage of mankind - after the first stage of the first man made of mud - is made of sperm . Let's move to the next . It says that Allah blew of his created soul into this human and gave him sight and hearing and hearts . Let's take both meanings again . If we take the meaning that it's the entire human race , it means the formation of the child in the womb as I said . If it means father Adam then it means the same . Done . No evolution .
So science (something you refuse to accept as valid) tells us that the first cell was formed through wet earth.
Trying to make me look bad through saying I don't accept science does nothing . What I don't accept is bigoted lies supported by more lies . To put it simply , you'll clutch to any straw left as long as it means evolution is true and I can't see why .
But I agree, those verses can be interpreted in the way you said, but considering other verses in the Quran and science, it absolutely should not!
If I hear more abusing of the word "Science" I'll lose it . I keep telling you that science keeps stepping on the remains of this myth day after another but it seems I'm talking to myself .
Imagine I say: "The computer has a hard-drive".
One valid interpretation is that the computer has a strong/hard drive to do work.
Another valid interpretation is that the computer has a physical substance called a hard-drive.
^They are both valid translations. But one of them is the more probable one. Apply this to what we talked about above ^
Not related . I said it before , we have the sayings of the prophet peace upon him and they are more than enough for every Muslim who respects Islam .
By the way, i am not completely a Hadith rejector. I believe there could be some truth in them, but they are very likely to be corrupted considering my studies of them.
I SWEAR to God that you're completely ignorant of any and everything in this science . Our last conversation showed it . And you need to understand that seeing something on the internet doesn't make you a scholar . Just because you read an article or two doesn't mean you know about it . And going further on will show yet more ignorance which would make one facepalm .
If you ever played a game back in grade school, its like the whisper game, the teacher promised everyone a lolipop if we could whisper what she says to the next person in a chain and see if the last whisper is the same as the original teacher's whisper. Although we all wanted that lolipop, we tried to listen carefully and did our best. In the end, the last whisper is so different from the original teacher's whisper even though we all had good intentions. In the last whisper, there is some truth in it, but it concealed much detail, exaggerated soem and students added their own itnerpreations to the whisper. Would it be far fetched to say the same things happened in hadiths? I don't think so.
I would have slapped you for this insolence if you were in front of me . I tell you about a science which scholars spend years learning and gathering and you think making a farce of this joke deems it invalid ?!
Brother, if you put all the evidence together, you see evolution. You just need a further study of it. I don't want this to turn into a scientific debate.
Why not ? You're so sure of it that you call denying it an embarrassment to Islam . The truth is , you were forced to study this in school and so you don't dare question it as if it was a gospel . I told you to drop by here :
www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.phpso that I show you and you still made no comment . Truthful is the one who said that Darwinism is a new religion with a doctrine .
Brother this is excuse making on your part and twisting verses to suit your desires. The verse is so clear. Combine other verses with this one and you will see. But you don't even have to. The verse by itself says that MANKIND was created from Alaq. No further excuse making necessary.
Uh-huh . And I'M the one being rude and offensive ? And twisting the meanings to suit my desire ? What desire ? The desire that we were created already perfectly and there was no need for a goddamned myth as evolution ?
Why do I get accused of interpreting verses to suit my desires? Didn't you just do that right there?
Because you show serious lack of knowledge about Arabic AND English AND logic ! You have something with multiple meanings , and another one saying that the true meaning is only one . Logically , you'd go with that one meaning because there is no room for doubt anymore . But you want to force the idea that the other WRONG meaning is the right one .
Between you and me , I KNOW your type . We see ones like that every now and then . They read a few articles on internet and thought they can judge the ones who spent their whole lives learning or even say the companions of the prophet are hypocrites . Abandon the idea that you're the genius who discovered what others couldn't all these centuries .
Again where did you get plants from?
Because it's mentioned in this sign o headache bringer !! For the thousand time , if you know nothing about language then it's your problem . No book of explanation says a thing about this doctrine called "Evolution" . And I as a simple commoner can give a more rational explanation which is that we were made to grow out of the soil of Earth as said before . The problem is with the ones who make this myth a religion to follow . And if you look at the meaning of "إنبات" here :
http://www.almaany.com/quran/26/7/6/it says that it is making something grow out of Earth or by making something out of this Earth . And even in the worst case scenario , if we take it as literally meaning that we grew out of ground then it is a metaphor because we have other crystal clear evidence that it isn't .
I trust my religion, I'm not changing the meaning of verses, you are 
. I am presenting them, and you are denying what they clearly say in context.
After all this displaying of ignorance of Quran , Hadith , language , and logic , you're not one to accuse others of changing the meanings of something .
But from my understanding of hadiths, I am VERY skeptical.
Be skeptical as much as you like when you're buying tomatoes . We're here talking about a whole science . Someone with absolutely no knowledge of it is the last to criticize it . You want me to see all this evidence you talk about . You want me to "Learn" . And now you think a rotten article on internet makes you able to take or let whatever you want of Islam ?
An important concept to understand is that the Quran was meant for all times, so it must support:
1.) 7th century fantasy
2.) Our beliefs
Fantasy my foot ! An insult to me is something I can tolerate , but insulting the companions and entire nations is unforgivable !
This is a really good verse and it proves that old translations of verses (those carried out by 7th century hadiths) do not have to be the right translations or interpretations and that Quranic verses have huge and mountainous meaning in them, that only Allah knows the true translation.
The verse is talking about those whose hearts are astray . And if we compare between those who lived right after the prophet and some nobody who sticks his nose in whatever he thinks he can , well , you'd be the one astray .
That shouldn't be directed at me..... I don't believe that the Quran teaches Adam as descended from other creation.... neither I will deny the strong clues for evolution
An advice , Egyptian : Drop by as well and we'll have a talk about what you really think is a strong evidence of evolution .
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!!! This question of mine answers this one of yours