Answering Christianity Research Center

http://www.answering-christianity.com/convert_christians.htm

You do an amazing Job brother , and may Allah swt reward your efforts.  As someone who cares a lot about our cause, can you please not include 9/11 and mussad as a means to convert non-muslims?

Your articles are full of quality and truthful information and succinct analysis. The 9/11 article is a complete turn off though brother.

I'm not saying it's wrong, it just does not belong in this website. I know for a fact it would turn many people away from the gems you have on here.

Very good to know brother Osama.

Perhaps as a suggestion(you can take from this whatever you will) having tabs on the home-page that direct someone to a certain section of the site(Quranic miracles, Rebuttals, Answering Islam rebuttals, Christianity, Judaism ect) would make it much easier to navigate the website and obtain useful information.

Furthermore, the home page can have the 'latest' articles you produce. This way it is easier to see what is going on.

Perhaps a 'Ask Question'  section could be on the home page, and it could be answered on a section of the home page?

Wasallam

The early muslims thought the earth was flat. Allah swts words and what the muslims believed are not one and the same. Allah swt explicitly states creating the earth after the stars:

79:27-30 "Are you the harder to create or the heaven? He made it. He raised high its height, and  then put it into a right good state. And he made dark its night and brought out its light. And the earth, he expanded it after that."

1. God creating the universe as a whole and allowing it to take shape
2. God creating stars "And brought out its light"
3. God creating the earth "And the earth , he expanded it after that"




You ask a good question: If the Quran indeed is saying a fully formed earth came before the creation of the rest of the universe, not only does this not go hand in hand with it says before, it also is a scientific error!

You cite the verse 10, then you go onto 11. I will go one step further and ask you to look at verse 12. I will also call upon you to look at verse 9 as well. You may find alternative translations saying ‘days’. It is widely accepted that Yawm can mean ‘periods’ . This is the translation I have by the way. Count up the total number of stages in this:

"9. Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two periods? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds. "
"10. He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four periods, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
11. Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
12. So He completed them as seven firmaments in two periods, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge. "


If we add them all up we come to eight stages.  If the Quran is talking about a sequential order, then it would not make sense because the Quran clearly states several times numerously that:


38. “We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six periods, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us.”
And again:
3. “Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority), regulating and governing all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (hath been obtained). This is Allah your Lord; Him therefore serve ye: will ye not receive admonition? “
And again:
7. He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six stages - and His Throne was over the waters - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them, "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death", the Unbelievers would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious sorcery!"
And again:
59. “He Who created the heavens and the earth and all that is between, in six periods, and is firmly established on the Throne (of Authority): Allah Most Gracious: ask thou, then, about Him of any acquainted (with such things).”


And again and so on and so forth several more times. So what do we find? In surah 41, verses 9-12, the number of periods add up to 8. Throughout the rest of the Quran, the number of stages is explicitly 6.

Another interesting thing is in every single instance where God describes creating the entire universe in six stages, it is always the HEAVENS and then the earth, implying the universe as a whole, before the earth.

I will explain why you read 8 stages before, and why you also read ‘then’. However, let me show a Quranic verse explicitly stating that the earth was being created AFTER the stars were.

Read this: 79:27-30 "Are you the harder to create or the heaven? He made it. He raised high its height, and  then put it into a right good state. And he made dark its night and brought out its light. And THE EARTH, HE EXPANDED  AFTER THAT"

This is the one of the few places in the Quran where God explicitly states the order. In totally unambiguous terms, the earth is created after the universe begins to take shape and not before.

This verse is actually miraculous. It implies that the universe begins to take shape, and stars from BEFORE God creates the earth. That is actually scientifically accurate.  This proves beyond any doubt that the earth was created after the stars formed. The key word is : AFTER that. Had the Quran meant the earth being created BEFORE the universe (scientific error!) it would clearly not have said ‘after that’.

But, we need to address what you have brought up.

So let me bring back the four verses we used before:
9. Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two periods? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
10. He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four periods, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
11. Moreover He comprehended in His design the heaven, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
12. So He completed them as seven firmaments in two stages, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.


When God is describing the formation of the universe , in these instances, they are not meant to be sequential. Firstly, the total number of periodsneeded to create the universe is 6 according to the Quran. This is cited an innumerable number of times. Whenever God mentions the holistic creation in six periods, he says “The heavens and the earth”. The universe as a whole always comes first.

These verses are not meant to be the real sequence. I will firstly explain the differing of periods:

When God talks about the creation of earth overall, he says it was in ‘two periods’. When he discusses about nourishing the earth, providing for it, setting it up, bestowing his blessings and so on and so forth, the number of periodsis four.

So the Overall number of periodsto create the earth is 2, and the four periods described in this verse could be sub periods of the primary periods described in the verse previous. This is a logical connection to make: one verse talks about the whole earth forming, the other talks about a possible sub-period of the 2 periods it took to create the earth.


Think about it. God tells us it took him 2 periods to make the earth, and four periods to make certain things on the earth. The four periods are clearly sub-periods of the original two periods - so right off the bat, it is not sequential. Would you create a house, and then say i made the living room after i created the whole house? It's clearly not meant to be sequential.

Now let us look at the Arabic:

When you say “Then he turned to the heavens” Here is the Arabic:
First, the word translated "then" is the Arabic word "thumma". It can be rendered "Moreover/Furthermore". It is also true that "thumma" can be rendered "then" (as in a subsequent "and"). So there is nothing sequential. It’s simply like me saying “I made that boat in ten days, moreover, I had made a ship in seven days”. Nothing alludes to the sequence.
Second, the Arabic word for "he turned" can be rendered as "he turned", " he has turned", or "he had turned". The implication being a past action has occured. Source can be found in this book: "Written Arabic - An Approach to the Basic Structures" by A.F.L. Beeston (Chapter 3, note 22)


Here is a different verse I have not brought before, but it looks similar:
Verse 2:29
“It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge” (Yusuf Ali trns)

“It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, and He designed the heavens also and fashioned (ordered) them as seven heavens; and He knows all things.” (Hamid S aziz)

“He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.”(Shakir)

“It is He Who created for your benefit all that is in the earth. Moreover He turned Himself towards the space and fashioned seven heavens perfect (- denoting the multiplicity of cosmic system). He has full knowledge of all things.”(Amatul Rahman Omar)

Remember what I had said before: It is also true that "thumma" can be rendered "then" (as in a subsequent "and". Then = subsequence ‘and’. The verses are not alluding to a sequence – it would make no sense. They are all talking about specific situations. If the Arabic went something like “AFTER THAT, God turned to the heavens…” It would surely have been a contradiction. But we don’t see the Arabic word/phrase of ‘After that’ which would clearly donate something sequential. We only see a connecting word to simply describe the individual event -  But we find the exact opposite, when God unambiguously uses ‘After that’ it is to denote the EARTH being created after the stars.

So far it has been established that:

•   The Quran has explicitly stated that the creation of the earth came AFTER the creation of stars. This is the only place where it is explicitly referring to a sequence of events and stating that one explicitly comes after another.
•   The 8 stages in the passages of verses you quoted surah 41, verses 9-12 were not meant to be sequential i.e. one following another. Moreover, the entire Quran has many verses (I only showed you some) clearly stating the universe including the earth were made in Six stages. The 8 stages I showed you refer to two stages to create the overall earth, and a four stages as part of the two original stages to create sustenance on earth and as part of the two stages.
•   The Arabic translation for Thumma can perfectly be used to mean ‘moreover’ or then to mean a ‘subsequent and’, thus not eluding to any sequence. 
•   Whenever God speaks of the holistic creation of everything, he states the Heavens AND the earth were made in six stages. The heavens always come first.


It is thus clear that there is no contradiction; the earth clearly comes after the creation of stars.

I'd recommend reading Brother Osama's reply , of-where i got a lot of information from:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/frank_earth_heaven.htm

Brother, here is an article i wrote, and i obtained the information from other muslim sources and philosophers. These arguments were among the one used by the ancients.

Evidence for the existence of God

Some people like to straw-man God as akin to a ‘fairy’. Other human beings like to create Idols of stone and make God in their image. However, both do injustice to what God actually is. Both are nonsensical claims and fail to grasp the topic at hand adequately. 

I will begin by describing the various states of existence.

Possible form of existence:

One of these states , let us say, is a man walking to a shop. Now, does a man have to walk to a shop? The answer is no. Is it possible for a man to walk to a shop? The answer is yes. Is It impossible? The answer is no. Thus, although it is possible for a man to walk to a shop, a man going to a shop is not a necessary action.


Impossible form of existence:

Now imagine 2+ 6 = 10. That is a fallacy and breaks the very tenants of logic and mathematics.  Is this a necessary form of existence? – no. Is this a possible form of existence? – no. This is an impossible form of existence.


Necessary form of existence:

Lastly, there is another state of existence.  We know our universe had a beginning, before it must have been some sort of multi-verse or system that churns out constants – to explain the ridiculous fine tuning our universe has – even if it came by a random process.  Everything happened all at once. Now, before our universe, if we simply assume there was another, and another, we land onto an infinite regress.


If you lived on earth, and you lived through one day, and were asked, have the days on earth been ‘infinite’? You would immediately answer ‘No’. If the number of days on earth truly was infinity, then you would not be hear talking about it, by virtue of the fact you cannot get to the first  day on earth, because a past-infinity is insurmountable – no day would come after and nothing would exist. Infinity is used in mathematics, the internet, and all sorts of things, but it has no place in an actual physical reality
Thus, whether you are an atheist or theist, whether you believe in matter or an underlying necessary ‘intelligence’, something had to exist, by virtue or by necessity of its own existence – or nothing exist. There had to be something that just existed for the sake of it. You can call this energy; matter if you feel that will be more palatable to you, or any other kind of physical existence for now.

Traits a necessary form of existence – which had to exist by the way – must have:

•   A necessary form of existence needs to exist by virtue, or necessity of its own existence. It just exists – nothing caused it.
•   It can have no ‘beginning’. You cannot say there was a point where there was no necessary existence – then it won’t exist as a necessity of its own existence.
•   It should not depend on anything else for its existence. A necessary form of existence, again, must exist simply as a necessity of its own existence; it should not exist as a dependence or result of something else.
•   It can not be subject to change – if it is subject to change, then it bring on an infinite regress. For instance, matter can turn into energy (particle/anti-particle), Matter can decay, and vice versa. If either of these are supposed to be the necessary form of existence, and existed for ‘eternity’ you would have an infinite causal link of conversions, which defies the very reason for having a necessary existence. Furthermore, is energy not dependent on matter?


Thus, the necessary form of existence cannot be energy or matter or anything physical, it must be non-physical, and thus, we have one of the qualities of God – immaterial and non-physical.

The universes constants

Our universe has a ridiculous amount of fine-tuning. You can say this resulted in the random churning out of our universe in the ensemble of infinite universes in the multiverse, or that the precision which would require magnitude of more ‘zeros’ than there is space to even put in this universe, is the result of some ‘purpose’ or some ‘underlying intelligence’. Matter cannot be the necessary existence, and so, there needs to be an immaterial necessary existence.

Let us define intelligence:

You are deficient in knowing something, and you acquire knowledge. There was a time where you did not know that thing and had to learn it.

Gods intelligence is not like this. God does not require to ‘learn’ .God is the embodiment of knowledge of all things, absolute, neither increasing nor decreasing – one of the absolute qualities of God.

For instance, in the Quran God describes himself as ‘all seeing’, but he has no eyes or a form (“No vision can perceive him”). Does God need light photons to bounce into his eyes? By ‘seeing’ it means the awareness and knowledge of all things. By ‘intelligence’ it is not acquired intelligence stored or utilised in a brain composed of neurons, or acquired sight or thought, it is absolute. God can only be realised by human beings from what is created – we can never get to the essence of God or comprehend God. Gods attributes are absolute and necessary God IS knowledge – rather than knowledge being a component of God. Thus, the whole point of ‘one God’ , one in the ‘absolute’ indivisible sense.

Why can’t we have a multi-verse, with an infinite number of universes?

Matter cannot be the necessary form of existence. Furthermore, you cannot impose the limit of infinity to quantifiable stackable forms of existence like matter.

For instance, if there are an infinite number of universes in the multiverse and our universe is made, you’ve just added +1 to the total number. There can’t have been an infinite before: you cannot have a static infinite in physical reality.(You might be able to draw the sign on a piece of paper, or use infinites on the internet(programming) or in abstract mathematics though).
Some people like to use the paradox of a hotel, whereby you go and book a room and ask everyone after the first person to move one room ahead. You then have a spare room. To use this to solve the multi-verse paradox brings some problems:

The last ‘man’ who is situated in the ‘last’ room will never again be situated in a room. People being in a room are likened to universes being existence, so by this paradox, you are basically wishing out an INFINITE number of displaced people who will never find a room (it’s an infinite, an infinite number will be finding rooms).

This assumes a static infinite. You will be wishing out of existence an infinite number of universes, and will be left with a finite number of universes – as you will be left with a finite number of people in rooms, where people in a room = universe. A necessary existence need not violate the very tenants of logic you use to prove it.

Thus, ridiculous fine tuning cannot be explained by virtue of chance (a multiverse churning out an infinite number of universes).– the only other option is purpose.

Conclusion:

God is an immaterial, unchanging, absolute, underlying intelligence, whose existence has been thought of by man – even by the most primitive of human beings.  I appreciate honest debate, but attributing ‘God’ to a flying spaghetti monster shows a complete lack of awareness of the topic and its finer details; but it’s viral, funny, and popular, and in todays society that sells.

“So who made God then? Doesn’t this create more problems?”

Not at all. By logic, I at least, have deduced the need of a necessary form of existence. On top of that, matter cannot be this necessary form of existence, and a multi-verse with an infinite number of universes cannot exist. Yet we need a necessary form of existence – something immaterial i.e God. Thus, the whole point of this exercise was to show why we need something that just exists, and why the universe cannot ‘just’ exist, but why an immaterial transcendent reality can fulfil the properties of a necessary existence – which has to exist, and why a physical reality can not.


“What about evil suffering/ect”

It has no effect within this context. We are only movements of matter, from point A to B. There is nothing objectively wrong with putting a sword in a human. Evil and good are relative. If you put it in a human in self-defence, it is different from murdering a child. The context of this particular discussion was for the objective – not the inherently subjective.

I absolutely agree with the OP. One of the main reasons i made this account was to alert brother Osama and the rest of us to websites like these. They look proffesional, factual, but they simply and cleverly misinterpret the Quran. Many people hear about the miracles of the Quran, then go on those websites and read the misinterpretations and think 'This is the wrong religion'. I am not too fused with regards to how many become muslims, i just want the truth to be relayed out to the people and then allow them to make their final decisions.

Brother Osama, if i can in any way be of use to you, please let me know. I have been studying the science of the Quran for a while, and will be going into medical school in October. If you require me to do any work for you in this respect and regard , please let me know and i will see if i have the ability to help.

Also brother Osama, i will try to recruit as many muslims to join this blog and this website. We need to have some sort of unity and organisation.