Author Topic: Are verses 15 and 16 of Chapter no-81 really referring to "Black Holes"?  (Read 18266 times)

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Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Assalamualykum.


   Brothers, I'm confused about verse 15 and 16 of Chapter no-81.

    So I swear by the retreating stars -(81:15)

    Those that run [their courses] and disappear -(81:16)


 Brother I have read many articles including brother Osama's one, where it says the above verses are talking about "Black Holes". But there is a problem.

  Some Muslims still believe that, the above verses are not talking about "Black Holes". They think, the above verses are talking about the night stars which run through out the night and disappear or hide themselves in the morning.

 To support their claim they bring verse 17 and 18 of the same surah, where Allah says:


               And by the night as it closes in(81:17)


                And by the dawn when it breathes(81:18)


 From the above verses we can see that Allah is talking about the worldly matters which we experience everyday. The stars which we see in the night sky disappear or hide themselves in the morning and again appear in the night. If we consider verse 15 and 16 this way, we find a link of these two verses with verse 17 and 18. But if we say verse 15 and 16 are talking about "Black Holes" then we don't find any link between verses 15,16 and 17,18.

So, What's the proof that verses 15 and 16 of Chapter no-81 are talking about "Black Holes"?

 Brothers, I'm confused please help me to remove my confusions.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 02:45:57 PM by FARHAN_UDDIN »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Explanation of verses 15 and 16 of Chapter no-81
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2013, 02:30:23 PM »
Lets assume that the Quran has scientific miracles that can only be discovered with modern knowledge and technology. People would interpret those verses in tafsirs that that made sense to them in the past. But now we are in the future and we discover that there is a deeper meaning to the Quran. God intended this to happen, he had to make sure:

1.) Verses in the Quran do not clearly contradict what the ancients at the time of Muhammad believed
2.) Verses in the Quran do not clearly contradict and clearly support the future scientific facts what the future people believed

^For example, Imagine the moon was actually made of cheese. We believe right now that it is not made of cheese. Imagine a prophet comes and tells us the moon is made of cheese--we would all reject him, we would call him unscientific and an idiot and his religion would not get passed on. So what does God do?-he makes a verse in the Quran that hints at the scientific absurdity the moon is made of a rock but tells us in it is actually made of Cheese so we can discover in the future. So the verse would be like "And by the moon with it's coagulated milky protrusions"--(Obviously I have not matched the elegance or divine superiority of the Quran, but this is just an example). So now:

1.) we would not see this as a contradiction (the moon has white or milk-like protusions): CHECK
2.) Future people will discover the moon is actually made of cheese and will say it is a miracle: (Cheese is coagulated milk). CHECK

^I know it is a stupid example, but it works. The Reality is, people in the future will say this is not a scientific miracle, it is just describing what the moon looks like or that the moon sometimes looks like cheese and it is just an observation..etc.  They will make many excuses to deny this miracle (if it were real) Etc..

The final connection:

Imagine the prophet muhammad explicity told them science clearly that contradicted their beliefs? They would never believe in Muhammad. So what did God do? God ingeniously left verses that have multiple meanings that *hints* to what the ancients believed but DOES NOT contradict scientific facts of the future! For example, the Arabs thought the Earth was flat and didn't move. The Quran does not say the Earth is flat and didn't move, The Quran does not explicitly state the Earth is round and moves: if it did, people would have never followed Muhammad. So what does the Quran do: It stays silent on the subject but it gives you hints the Earth is round and moves (The mountains you reckon as solid are moving like the motion of clouds, etc.).

So in conclusion: You can say that verses 81:15-16 were talking about the night stars disappearing AND black holes. The reason why I say black holes too is because of the way the verses are worded. So this is an example of Allah making sure the people of the past and the future do not see a contradiction in those verses and that the people of the future can use these verses to increase their faith.

Also: Recognize that the Quran is separating verses 15/16 from 17/18. So it is talking about 2 different phenomena! So verses 15 and 16 are seperate from 17/18.

 So I swear by the retreating stars -(81:15)

    Those that run [their courses] and disappear -(81:16)

^ He swears by the retreating stars that run their courses and disappear


And by the night as it closes in(81:17)

^So he swears by the retreating stars that run their courses and disappear AND the night that closes in

And by the dawn when it breathes(81:18)

What does he mean by the dawn when it breathes and why is separate from the night as it closes in? Scientifically, plans photosynthesize in the morning and respire (BREATHE) at night! ANOTHER MIRACLE! That is why the Quran separates those verses, they are pointing to different phenomena.

^So he So he swears by the retreating stars that run their courses and disappear AND the night that closes in AND the dawn when it breathes! Three different swears=three different phenomena
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But lets assume those verses are NOT talking about black holes, there are many other verses that do:

[Quran 86.1-3] And the heaven and the "Knocker" (Tarek in Arabic) 2 How could you know about the "Knocker"? 3 The piercing star (Thakeb in Arabic). 

^  A star that pierces..hmm--> A black hole literally pierces!!! The Arabic word "Thukb" means hole; "Thakeb" means the one who makes the hole. The Quran is describing a knocking star that makes a hole.


More on it: From: http://www.speed-light.info/relativity_quran.htm

General relativity predicted the formation of black holes from neutron stars. (Neutron stars are remnants of exploded stars, see Iron below). As more matter falls into a neutron star its mass increases; and as its mass increases its gravity increases. A point will be reached where gravity would have grown so much that not even light could escape, thus a black hole forms.

Most neutron stars discovered today are in the form of radio pulsars. They are called radio pulsars because they emit radio waves; we can simply connect a radio telescope to a loud speaker and hear a pulsar. Pulsars sound like someone persistently knocking. Click here and listen to a slow knocking pulsar. Click here and listen to a fast knocking pulsar.

So in short, we can hear a pulsar knock; and if matter continues to fall into this pulsar a black hole will eventually form. Moslems say that this is what Allah says. The Quran describes a star by "The one who knocks" and says that it is "The one who makes a hole".

[Quran 86.1-3] And the heaven and the "Knocker" (Tarek in Arabic) 2 How could you know about the "Knocker"? 3 The piercing star (Thakeb in Arabic).

The Arabic word "Thukb" means hole; "Thakeb" means the one who makes the hole. The Quran is describing a knocking star that makes a hole.

All stars will eventually die. They will either directly collapse on themselves and become black holes or their remnants will merge with other stars that will eventually become black holes, or if external mass falls into those remnants they will blow up and leave black holes... So black holes are the destiny of most stars. Actually our solar system formed out of debris of a stars 100 times more massive than our sun that exploded and became a black hole. At the center of black holes (collapsed stars) lies a location called the Singularity. An observer far away from a black hole sees the events near a back hole in slow motion. If he shines a beam of light into this black hole he will have to wait forever but still this beam of light will never reach the singularity. The singularity is a location in the future of stars where gravity goes so mad that space and time become indistinguishable. From general relativity we know that this is a location where the structure of spacetime becomes singular (hence the name singularity). However singular (Ahad in Arabic) is one of God's 99 names. In the Quran God swears by the locations of stars which turned out to carry His own name:

[Quran 56.75-77] I swear by the locations of stars, 76 it is a great swear if you knew, 77 it is a noble Quran...

Here God swears not by the stars but rather by their locations (mawakeh in Arabic). Today we know that the future of those locations is singular, that is they carry God's own name: "Ahad".

Moslems ask how could an illiterate man who lived 1400 years ago have figured out Pulsars, Black Holes and Singularity?

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Re: Explanation of verses 15 and 16 of Chapter no-81
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2013, 10:34:59 AM »
Assalamualykum.


       Brother thanks for your answer. But can you make it more clear how verses 15,16 have no relation with verses 17,18. Brother please help me, I want to remove my confusion once and for all.

 And brother one question,

 Which country are you from?

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Explanation of verses 15 and 16 of Chapter no-81
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2013, 01:50:17 PM »
Assalamualykum.


       Brother thanks for your answer. But can you make it more clear how verses 15,16 have no relation with verses 17,18. Brother please help me, I want to remove my confusion once and for all.

 And brother one question,

 Which country are you from?


Yes, in summary verses 15/16 is where God swears on the retreating stars that run their courses away and disappear, verse 17 is talking about God swearing at the night when it closes in (Why would God swear on 2 different things), verse 18 is talking about God swearing by the dawn when it breathes (again God swears on a different thing). Clearly God is pointing you to different phenomena. Since he swears on the retreating stars, the night when it closes in AND the dawn when it breathes, he is pointing you to different phenomena he tells you that:

So stars disappearing is separate from the night closing in which is separate from the dawn breathing.


As I said earlier, verses in the Quran are meant to be universal. They are meant to be interpreted by the ancients without contradiction, and are meant to be interpreted by the future people without contradiction. And we see that exactly. The matter is that people in the past would try to make meanings of the Quran, the problem is they don't have the natural knowledge to interpret the Quran scientifically--so they are left with interpreting it figuratively.

But nonetheless there are other verses that talk about black holes as well. But here is an Arabic analysis of that verse.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/black_holes.htm

Here's another one:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sun_becomes_white_dwarf_star.htm


Let me know if you have any questions.

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Re: Explanation of verses 15 and 16 of Chapter no-81
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2013, 08:56:29 AM »
Assalamualykum.


      Brother thanks for your answer. But sorry, I'm still confused.


       
           So I swear by the retreating stars -(81:15)

        Those that run [their courses] and disappear -(81:16)

       And by the night as it closes in(81:17)

         And by the dawn when it breathes(81:18)


 Brother, If we analyze the above ayahs closely then don't we get a meaning that, after the vanishing of the stars, the night closes or ends and dawn begins.

Brother I think before the closing of night the stars vanish and day starts. So there is a relation or link among the above ayahs. It's obvious that, after the closing of night, dawn breathes or starts. So, how does verse 15 and 16 refer to black holes? I'm still pretty much confused.

 And brother you said plants photosynthesize in the morning and respires at night. But how it is related with verses 17 and 18? Please brother, explain me this in detail.

 Brother please don't get angry with me for my questions.


Peace.       


     
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 09:35:05 AM by FARHAN_UDDIN »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Explanation of verses 15 and 16 of Chapter no-81
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2013, 01:50:54 PM »
Assalamualykum.


      Brother thanks for your answer. But sorry, I'm still confused.


       
           So I swear by the retreating stars -(81:15)

        Those that run [their courses] and disappear -(81:16)

       And by the night as it closes in(81:17)

         And by the dawn when it breathes(81:18)


 Brother, If we analyze the above ayahs closely then don't we get a meaning that, after the vanishing of the stars, the night closes or ends and dawn begins.

Brother I think before the closing of night the stars vanish and day starts. So there is a relation or link among the above ayahs. It's obvious that, after the closing of night, dawn breathes or starts. So, how does verse 15 and 16 refer to black holes? I'm still pretty much confused.

 And brother you said plants photosynthesize in the morning and respires at night. But how it is related with verses 17 and 18? Please brother, explain me this in detail.

 Brother please don't get angry with me for my questions.


Peace.       


     

Hello brother, No: Ask all the questions you need too!

You'll notice that verses 81:15/16 do not specifically talk about stars/planets--the Arabic doesn't say stars/planets (from my understanding). So it is a way people understood the verse in the past. The way people understood the verse in the past is irrelevant because they didn't have scientific knowledge to understand that verse.

Verse 15 is when Allah Swears on the retreating ones/slinkers. Verse 16 describes their action. Verse 17 and 18 are different swears.

"when it breathes in," is a metaphorical reference to breathing, respiration, or breathing deeply. This term particularly emphasizes the way that the production of oxygen begins in the morning, and that the greatest levels of oxygen, essential for respiration, are given off at that time. The importance of the phenomena is also emphasized by the way that Allah swears upon it. The way that Allah indicates the action of photosynthesis, among the most important discoveries of the 20th century, in this verse, is another of the scientific miracles of the Qur'an.


But I am not very knowledgeable on the subject. Maybe brother Osama may explain. But like I said, there are other verses that talk about black holes and pulsars. This one is a good one too, I fail to see how it is not a good one. The way I look at it is that those verses are talking about different things. God does this purposely so he can differentiate those phenomena.

You really need someone who understands Arabic to explain. Hopefully someone could help.

http://www.quranandscience.com/islam-and-science-universe/69-the-piercing-star-and-black-holes.html

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_37.html
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 02:19:16 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Assalamualykum.


    Brothers one more Question. Do verses 15 and 16 really talk about any star? We know the Arabic word for star is "Najm". And we only see the word  "   بِالْخُنَّسِ " in the above verse no-15. Does بِالْخُنَّسِ  really have any connection with the word "Star"? It also might refer to some other thing which might not be a star. What's the proof that the above two verses only refer to "Black Holes" no other thing? What's the proof that it's indicating something which is in the outer space?

Brothers I seek all of your help in this matter.


Peace.


Offline mclinkin94

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Assalamualykum.


    Brothers one more Question. Do verses 15 and 16 really talk about any star? We know the Arabic word for star is "Najm". And we only see the word  "   بِالْخُنَّسِ " in the above verse no-15. Does بِالْخُنَّسِ  really have any connection with the word "Star"? It also might refer to some other thing which might not be a star. What's the proof that the above two verses only refer to "Black Holes" no other thing? What's the proof that it's indicating something which is in the outer space?

Brothers I seek all of your help in this matter.


Peace.

It refers to something that ''sinks" and "sweeps" according to the arabic dictionaries. Anyone who speaks Arabic want to verify?

In my opinion, the verse that really talks about black holes are the following--the ones you posted are not as direct as these--:

And I swear by the stars' positions-and that is a mighty oath if you only knew. (Qur'an, 56:75-76)

when the stars are extinguished, (Qur'an, 77: 8)


[I swear] by Heaven and the Tariq! And what will convey to you what the Tariq is? The Star Piercing [the darkness]! (Qur'an, 86:1-3)

^Do you know any star that is piercing?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 03:31:21 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Assalamualykum.


    Brothers one more Question. Do verses 15 and 16 really talk about any star? We know the Arabic word for star is "Najm". And we only see the word  "   بِالْخُنَّسِ " in the above verse no-15. Does بِالْخُنَّسِ  really have any connection with the word "Star"? It also might refer to some other thing which might not be a star. What's the proof that the above two verses only refer to "Black Holes" no other thing? What's the proof that it's indicating something which is in the outer space?

Brothers I seek all of your help in this matter.


Peace.

It refers to something that ''sinks" and "sweeps" according to the arabic dictionaries. Anyone who speaks Arabic want to verify?

In my opinion, the verse that really talks about black holes are the following--the ones you posted are not as direct as these--:

And I swear by the stars' positions-and that is a mighty oath if you only knew. (Qur'an, 56:75-76)

when the stars are extinguished, (Qur'an, 77: 8 8)


[I swear] by Heaven and the Tariq! And what will convey to you what the Tariq is? The Star Piercing [the darkness]! (Qur'an, 86:1-3)

^Do you know any star that is piercing?

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Assalamualykum.


             Brother, you said Verses 1,2 and 3 of Chapter no-86 are referring to black holes. But these three verses are only suitable for "Pulsar Stars". Are there any similarities between a "Pulsar Star" and a "Black Hole" ?  If there is,can you please explain it with reference to any of Nasa's article?

 And brother I have almost understood verses 15 and 16 of Chapter no-81. There remains only one confusion and that is, Are these two verses really referring to something which is in the outer space? If so, then what's the proof? It may  also refer to something which is on earth and which sinks or sweeps but it's unknown to us!!!!!

 Answers to the above facts will remove my confusions once and for all.

 Brother thanks for your nice explanations so far.

Take Care.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 03:01:40 AM by FARHAN_UDDIN »

Offline mclinkin94

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Assalamualykum.


             Brother, you said Verses 1,2 and 3 of Chapter no-86 are referring to black holes. But these three verses are only suitable for "Pulsar Stars". Are there any similarities between a "Pulsar Star" and a "Black Hole" ?  If there is,can you please explain it with reference to any of Nasa's article?

 And brother I have almost understood verses 15 and 16 of Chapter no-81. There remains only one confusion and that is, Are these two verses really referring to something which is in the outer space? If so, then what's the proof? It may  also refer to something which is on earth and which sinks or sweeps but it's unknown to us!!!!!

 Answers to the above facts will remove my confusions once and for all.

 Brother thanks for your nice explanations so far.

Take Care.

Brother, Black holes pierce and 'knock'. This verse cannot be talking about pulsars because pulsars don't pierce through anything, they just knock.

The mentioned verses (By the heaven and the Tarik (The Knocker) * Ah, what will tell thee what the Tarik (The knocker) is! * The piercing Star!) (Quran 86:1-3) stated that the piercing star which we explained its relation to supermassive black hole has another significant feature as the verses called it Al-Tarik (The knocker) so how does the piercing star and the resulted supermassive black hole knock?

Part of the matter of accretion disk rotating supermassive black hole which is about to fall in the supermassive black hole is re-emitted as Relativistic jets which are extremely powerful twin jets of plasma being shot along the axis of spin of the accretion disk having a velocity approaching the speed of light. This jet knocks hardly and strongly any thing in its way and for long distances.

And due to the movement of this plasma jet it knocks the interstellar and the intergalactic medium producing real sound waves.

Take a look at this page for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_jet  Notice the words for black holes in that page

 


Verses 15 and 16 could definitely refer to something on earth that sinks and sweeps. But why couldn't it also refer to black holes? We know there is nothing on earth that sinks and sweeps.

In other words, why wouldn't all powerful Allah make verses with more than 1 applicable meaning. Black holes literally sink and they literally sweep!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 05:14:34 AM by mclinkin94 »

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Assalamualykum.

  Brother, verses 1,2 and 3 of Chapter no-56 do refer to "Pulsar Stars". And "Pulsar Stars" are obviously piercing stars. The Gama rays emitted by this star can penetrate through anything.

Please read the following articles:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/pulsars_are_knocking_and_penetrating.htm

http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/astronomu-a-space/621-the-piercing-star

http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/astronomu-a-space/119-cosmic-hammers


May Allah The Most High Bless you.

Take Care.

Offline mclinkin94

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Assalamualykum.

  Brother, verses 1,2 and 3 of Chapter no-56 do refer to "Pulsar Stars". And "Pulsar Stars" are obviously piercing stars. The Gama rays emitted by this star can penetrate through anything.

Please read the following articles:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/pulsars_are_knocking_and_penetrating.htm

http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/astronomu-a-space/621-the-piercing-star

http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/astronomu-a-space/119-cosmic-hammers


May Allah The Most High Bless you.

Take Care.

Thank you for correcting me Farhan. Could there be any chance those verses talk about both black holes and pulsars. Because both of those pierce and knock in a sense. I'm not sure. It is an amazing verse though!

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Assalamualykum.

 Brother, I don't understand one thing. That is, why Allah swears by the location of the stars instead of their Singularity. And still I'm confused, what is called "the location of singularity"? Can you please explain this with reference to any of the articles of NASA? Please


Take Care.

Offline mclinkin94

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Stars will eventually die. They will either directly collapse on themselves and become black holes or their remnants will merge with other stars that will eventually become black holes, or if external mass falls into those remnants they will blow up and leave black holes... So black holes are the destiny of most stars. Actually our solar system formed out of debris of a stars 100 times more massive than our sun that exploded and became a black hole. At the center of black holes (collapsed stars) lies a location called the Singularity. An observer far away from a black hole sees the events near a back hole in slow motion. If he shines a beam of light into this black hole he will have to wait forever but still this beam of light will never reach the singularity. The singularity is a location in the future of stars where gravity goes so mad that space and time become indistinguishable. From general relativity we know that this is a location where the structure of spacetime becomes singular (hence the name singularity). However singular (Ahad in Arabic) is one of God's 99 names. In the Quran God swears by the locations of stars which turned out to carry His own name:

[Quran 56.75-77] I swear by the locations of stars, 76 it is a great swear if you knew, 77 it is a noble Quran...

Here God swears not by the stars but rather by their locations (mawakeh in Arabic). Today we know that the future of those locations is singular, that is they carry God's own name: "Ahad".


Okay, you asked, why didn't Allah swear by the star's singularity? In that verse it says: Then I swear by the setting of the stars,

What does setting mean?
Setting: The place or type of surroundings where something is positioned or where an event takes place

So God is referencing the positions of the stars and then he tells you it is a great oath. So the position of the stars has some strong significance, the interpretations can be about (and not limited to):

-Constellations (Perhaps they have a scientific reason for being in those spots) But Why didn't it mention constellations directly with the word for it?
-Singularity (As I stated above)
-Another significance of the way the stars are positioned (We cannot assume that stars are randomly positioned, perhaps their is something about their positioning in which we haven't discovered yet.


As far as singularity goes (read what is in green above). The Quran didn't directly refer to singularity because maybe it was pointing to different things all at once (Verse has many accurate meanings). By swearing by the location of the stars--and not the stars themselves-may nor may not refer to a singularity. I think it leans more towards singularity.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 04:48:33 PM by mclinkin94 »

 

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