Answering Christianity Research Center

There is only one true interpretation of the Quran. This is true irrespective if people (or the majority of people) adhere to false interpretations.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/how%20to%20study%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm

My understanding is that sunni Muslims like yourself reject hadiths if they contradict the Quran.

Well, I'm pleased to tell you that the Quran does not permit raping of female slaves. Now the rejection of those hadiths is up to you:

http://quransmessage.com/articles/sex%20with%20slave%20girls%20FM3.htm

"Scripture has never permitted men to engage in sex outside the institution of marriage whether this is from the category of free believing women, or from the category of 'right hands possess'."

HE REPLEYED
CL Edwards
That would not have happen since that is not what was decreed to happen. The need for the New Testament was decreed before Jesus was even incarnated, the purpose of the Old Testament was to set the stage for the New, for example see the two promise made by God in Jeremiah 33:14-26 and Jeremiah 31::31-37 ...God's promises can not be broken and that is what we know Islam is not true.

I don't know exactly what the debate is about, so if you care to explain a little-I may be able to help.

What really caught my eye was his last statement and how he said that is how we know Islam is not true. What in the world does that have to do with the subject matter?

These verses he mentioned in no way contradict the Quran (in fact, they are irrelevant to the Quran). The Quran and torah both state that there is going to be more messengers and more laws for and after the children of Israel. The Quran and Torah both agree that the messiah is coming etc.

Question 1: You said that the Quran refers to itself as a book even in the stages where it was not fully given to the prophet Muhammad. So how is it a book if it is only a few bunches of verses?

Answer 1: The Quran existed before it was given to the prophet Muhammad in the preserved tablet.

Quran 85:21-22  But this is an honored Quran [inscribed] on a preserved tablet.

Question 2: You stated it is a contradiction when the Quran said that the people of Muhammad had never gotten a messenger before and where the Quran says that EVERY nation has gotten its messenger.

Answer 2: The people of Muhammad have NOT received a messenger before the prophet muhammad. ONCE the prophet Muhammad became a messenger to his people, EVERY nation at THIS point has received a messenger. So when Muhammad was reciting the Quran, EVERY nation has received its messenger.

Question 3: How could the Quran say that the prophet's people have not received the message if Ismael was a messenger to his people's ancestors?

Answer 3: The problem with this is that this question makes far too many unverified assumptions.

1.) Where in the Quran does it state that Ishmael was a messenger to the prophet Muhammad's people or their fathers? The verses before Quran 6:89 state that these people were chosen and given the message and were prophets. but where does it state that Ishmael was a prophet to prophet Muhammad's people or their ancestors? 

2.) Secondly I believe you are stuck in the delusion that Ishmael was somehow the direct ancestor of the people of Muhammad. Muhammad's people (whenever they settled) were not mentioned to be descended from Ishamael. You believe that ONLY though tradition. This is why Quranists are immune to all Islamic criticisms. The people of Muhammad could have existed before jews for all you know. All in all, nowhere in the Qur’an does it state that Ishmael is the progenitor of the Arab race.

For more on Abraham and Ishmael's relation to Muhammad, visit this link:

http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20the%20arabs%20descendants%20of%20abraham%20FM3.htm

wrong ?!! no it is SHIRK and gets anyone who believes so anytime anywhere outside the folds of islam completely...

Do you think anyone who believes that a human being (jesus) created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Shirk is when you put partners with Allah. If unitarians do that, then they won't be saved.

Now what I know is that unitarians believe that Allah created everything. I don't see any shirk there.

The only thing that is wrong is when they said that Allah used Jesus to create the world. This is not shirk.

In the Quran, Allah used Gabriel to give the message to the prophet. We believe that Allah gave the message to the prophet, irrespective of who he used. Just as the case with Jesus. They believe Allah used Jesus to create the world. Who created the world? Allah. Same concept. Neither counts as shirk. Allah is the ultimate creator and ruler of the world in both cases.

Let's give an example: Let's say Allah created the universe by instructing an Angel to start off the big bang. Who created the universe? An Angel or Allah? Is it shirk to believe that an angel started the big bang by Allah's power? Who is the ultimate creator?

Allah delivered the message to Muhammad in Islam--> Even though he used Gabriel

In Christianity (unfortunately) Allah created the world-->Even though he used Jesus.

and I said they DON'T, supported that from both the Quran and the same article you quoted.

They do. The Quran makes it clear that some of them do (or did) in 2:62.  I hope you won't at least deny that. Otherwise if none of them believe in God, the last day and live righteous lives, THEN why would Allah say that the jews/Christians that believe in God, the last day and live righteous lives would be saved?

If the people of the scripture deny and do not uphold the religion of Islam they no longer fit the criteria given in Quran 2:62 and they become disbelievers. 


in other words anyone anywhere who won't uphold the religion of Islam (whether trinitarian,unitarian) as conveyed by the prophet Mohamed peace be upon him becomes automatically disbeliever  ...

Yes. IF they deny the Quran, they become disbelievers. That applies to everyone.

For your second statement, it is true. Anyone who won't uphold the religion of Islam once the Quran has been recited to them, become disbelievers based on the Quranic criteria--yes.

not because they were believers before the  warning of  the prophet , they simple were disbelievers and continued  to be disbelievers ....
if they were believers there were no sense at all to be warned,fought etc....

Not necessarily. Think of it like your boss at the company gave you a new law--a new rule...if you continue to obey the old law--you are going against your boss.

They were not disbelievers because they:

-Believed in God (not trinitarian either)
-The last day
-Lived righteous lives

I provided clear cut irrefutable proofs (from both the quran and the bible) that all the people of the book  all included in the verse 9:29 as disbelievers... you provided nothing to sustain your position ..anyway let our readers judge...


one final word,  the words of Abduraheem Greene has nothing to do with the point, the destiny of those christians before or after Islam has nothing to do with whether their theologies can be labled as ISLAM.

Quite the contrary, I have not seen any good arguments presented.


Islam means submission. To be labeled as islam is to submit. If muslims and Christians and jews correctly submit to Allah given by the criteria in the Quran (2:62) and elsewhere, they are Muslim.

[quote0 Thats incredible indeed.... on one hand you wrongly turns the nonmuslims into muslims ,and the muslims into non muslims ...  what a twist !!!

plz remember don't get us into small cult Quranists vs Sunna discussion ... that is not our topic...  [/quote]

Quranist vs. Sunnah is not our topic and it cannot be our topic on this forum

I don't think it is incredible to label those who reject one Quranic verse as disbelievers. Whether they identify as Muslim, Christian, etc, you become a disbeliever once you reject a Quranic verse.

Quran 3:4 Before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Qur'an. Indeed, those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment, and Allah is exalted in Might, the Owner of Retribution.

I repaet again ,christians who never heard of Islam are NOT muslims ([read again my post of the qualifications to be a muslim), but whether destined to hell or not , God will judge them with his justice and mercy....

You are equivocating on the word "muslim". That will serve as an issue.

  If they held the monotheism of the old testament ,kept the law.... then not only they can be called (muslims) but also saved.  if they took Jesus as God , then they no longer be called muslims and their destiney to hell.

Agreed.

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The best meaning is to say that Unitarians who have not heard Allah's verses in the Quran are Muslims. 

Again unitarians are not muslims even if not heard the Quran.....why? because they don't believe in Allah and the day of judgment ,they don't held the law of lawful and unlawful.

Yes they do. And most do live righteous lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses#Beliefs

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I also have no problem labeling those who do not know anything about Islam (heard Allah's verses) but believe in God, the last day and live a righteous life as Muslims.   

those folk ,simply don't exist .

You really think that? How about people who only hear bad things about Islam-->Evil, terrorism, murder etc. You think they heard Allah's actual verses and disbelieved?

I have no problem with that only the christian who took Jesus as God in spite of their knowledge of the monotheism of the old testament shouldn't be saved...

Nor does the Quran.

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So my basic thesis is that Quran 2:62 states that ANYONE who believes in God, the last day and lives a righteous life will be saved.

Rejecting a Quranic verse is not living a righteous life.

Believing Jesus as God is not believing in Allah as God. 

Those who are ignorant of Islam but believe in God and the last day and live a life that is moral cannot grieve in the last day.

The monotheists are still waiting .

I will, as I promised.

let me deal with the shias first in their forums as I cannot believe how deviant they are when it comes to the Quranic understanding. 

You wish them to be so , but the fact "submission to God will" is nothing but being fully Muslim , even those who believe in Jesus as God claim themselves to be sub,itters to God's will...  but just saying so doesn't necessarily means so....  nothing cheaper than words....

You don't just claim submission, you must actually submit. The Quran explicitly states those who say Jesus is God are not Muslim and are rather disbelievers. The jews and Christians who have been introduced to Islam and rejected it are no longer Muslim, they became disbelievers. Likewise, the Muslims who identify as such who put another source of law besides the Quran are disbelieving in Allah's direct words and are no longer Muslims.

Unitarians are NOT Muslims ,and destined to hell if not believing in Mohamed peace be upon him as the last messeneger of God , accepting the Quranic laws ,and put an end to their false belief of the nature and rule of Jesus and their concept of the day of judgment.....

That would contradict Quran 2:62...

Christians who have not heard of Islam are Muslims, likewise the ignorant Christians who have not heard of Islam are also Muslim (submitters), once they read the Quran and disbelieve, they become non-Muslims.

Quran 45:7-8 Woe to every sinful liar who hears the verses of Allah recited to him, then persists arrogantly as if he had not heard them. So give him tidings of a painful punishment.

^Anyone who hears the Quranic verses and rejects them become non-muslims.

This applies to EVERYONE. Muslims, Christians, Jews and sabians. IT also agrees with Quran 2:62--That those who do righteous deeds will be saved. Disbelieving in Allah's verses after hearing them is not a righteous deed.

Yes again Unitarians are NOT muslims (submitters to God) ,why?

1- Claiming that Unitarians or any others who don't believe in Mohamed as the last prophet of God, makes the act of Allah when he sent Mohamed peace be upon him with Islam to be without meaning....   If it is fine with Unitarians and what they do is Islam ,why would Allah send Mohamed with new message ,new laws, attacking their concept of Jesus ,their concept of the day of judgment?!!!   

How about the Christians before Muhammad? you saying they are destined to hell? If so, that too would contradict Quran 2:62.

The best meaning is to say that Unitarians who have not heard Allah's verses in the Quran are Muslims. This reconciles Quran 2:62 with Quran 45:7-8. Your interpretation does not at all reconcile these verses, rather it raises more questions than it solves. Why would Allah speak Quran 2:62 if Christians are destined to hell? According to your interpretation, this has no answer. According to the best interpretation that Christians and Jews who believe in God, the last day and do good will not grieve in the after. Exceptions are made throughout the Quran such as belief in the trinity, disbelieving in Allah's words etc.

2- As you are a Sunna denier, let's quote the Quranic clues ...

Who are those who are NOT Muslims "submitters to God" ...

Those who:

-Do not believe in only Allah
-Do not believe in the last day
-Do not do righteous deeds

are non-submitter/non-Muslims.

Jews and Christians who corrupt their scriptures do not do righteous deeds. Likewise Jews and Christians who denied the Quran after hearing it are not doing righteous deeds.

1- Jews ,Christians and Mushrek ..

Qur’an 3:67: Abraham in truth was not a Jew, neither a Christian; but he was a Muslim and one pure of faith; he was no associator of others with God.

This verse seems to agree with what I have been saying the whole time. Most Jews and Christians are not submitters, but some (like abraham) were submitters to Allah!

It is true, many Jews have corrupted their religion, many Christians made up things about Allah etc. Many did non righteous deeds.   


 

what is wrong with Jews and christians ,not being labled as Muslims ?

Well honestly, I have an issue labelling current Muslims as Muslims as they fail to uphold God's Quran and only God's Quran as we were instructed. I could label those who are ignorant or haven't given the Quran much thought and follow the Sunnah blindly as Muslims though--which I'm guessing is the Majority.

 I also have no problem labeling those who do not know anything about Islam (heard Allah's verses) but believe in God, the last day and live a righteous life as Muslims.



Indeed Allah predicted this:

Quran 25:30 And the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will say: "O my Lord! Verily, my people deserted this Quran

Holy Quran  9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Unitarians can never be excluded from the verse .... 

First: What does it mean when Allah says that Jews and christians don't believe in Allah and the last day?

surely it doesn't mean that Jews and christians are atheists who doesn't believe that this world was created by God, neither it means that they don't believe that there is a day of judgment and life after death.....

the prophet already knew that about them....  so the means has to be, that they don't believe in Allah and the day of judgment as truly depicted in the Quran ..... 

If this is the case (your last sentence), then I agree. The Jews and Christians who do are not righteous (believe in blasphemous ideologies AFTER knowing about Allah and the prophet and Allah's verses) are non-Muslims.

But again, I want to overstate this: The verse you posted seems to again agree with my thesis. That the Jews and Christians who have not been exposed to Islam will  be saved. This also agrees with Quran 45:7-8 as well.
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I also wanted to state that, the interpretation of Quran 2:62 that I hold is not only limited to Quranist reasoning. Here is a sunni Scholar who seems to agree with me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiNTHms8pro

Abduraheem Green says that:

The Jews and Christians who follow their religion BEFORE the information game to them of Islam will be saved. That was my theisis and how I got he Quranic exegesis. I also add to Green's statement that those who believe int he trinity cannot be saved either.