Answering Christianity Research Center

As'salamu Alaikum brother Osama,
In any language there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.  I do not rely on one translator, rather I go to corpus.quran, and if you have additional translations I am always interested in contrasting your translation with that of established and often referenced authors.

In any language brother Hamza has thoroughly refuted explicitly several of your asserted scientific miracles.  You have offered no specific rebuttals to our refutations, only links that repeat your erroneous assertions. He has not explicitly addressed all of them but I will begin to do so myself below.

Yes, I would be interested in the PhDs and others you mention.  What are their names?

I have replicated one of your asserted miracles.  It took me about an hour.

Below are 114 numbers representing the number of verses in 114 chapters of a book.
105,59,48,59,20,49,29,74,28,4,22,4,7,63,18,92,13,7,12,104,8,92,74,44,86,2,85,22,19,94,18,97,18,54,53,40,72,26,42,98,13,4,26,96,74,12,99,35,71,93,33,57,103,32,46,75,98,4,99,9,14,52,44,87,46,81,93,2,101,17,17,29,30,87,40,62,40,100,104,54,85,27,41,83,70,98,30,35,65,105,64,8,96,66,69,4,47,65,72,18,31,48,64,13,100,21,46,3,63,11,103,103,98,46

The sum of these 114 numbers is 5938.
The sum of 114 verse numbers is 6555, as you have often cited.
Entering the 114 verse count number into your numerology algorithm yields a sum of even numbers equal to 5938, and the sum of the odd numbers equal to 6555.

I, an ordinary man, intentionally constructed this “numerical miracle”.  Therefore, an ordinary 7th century man was capable of doing the same. 

It was all good fun and I learned a few fascinating aspects of this numerological illusion, and in the spirit of Randy, I will reveal my secrets. 

First the sum of the chapter numbers and the verse numbers must always equal the sum of the even numbers and the odd numbers.  This is because the whole numerological algorithm is just an example of the associative property and the commutative property of addition.  The algorithm adds a set of numbers using one set of associations, then adds that same set of numbers a second time using a different set of associations.  Since association and commutation does not change the sum in addition of positive numbers the answers must always match no matter what the verse lengths are.

But this numerology lays out additional criteria.  The individual sums must always match.  Now, since 6555 is an odd number the chapter number total must match the odd number total, because a sum of even numbers is always an even number.

Likewise, the verse length total must be an even number, because it must match the total of even numbers, which is always even.

So, all I had to do was get the odd number total to match the fixed value of 6555. This was quickly and easily done by my brain.  For example, if the total of the odd numbers was 121 too low, all I had to do was look for an even number of 122.  I then subtracted 1 from the verse length on that row so the total would now be 121 on that row.  The even/odd test automatically moved the number 122 out of the even number column and into the odd number column as 121.

This movement caused the odd number total to rise to exactly 6555.  By necessity of the algorithmic structure the even number total automatically then matched the verse count total and…presto…I created a “numerical miracle”.

In real life all the scribe would have had to do is combine 2 adjacent verses in the chapter into a single verse, and he would have achieved the exact same effect.

Brother Osama, the time has come for an intellectual awakening for you.  I warmly invite you to the realm of rationality and reason.  I urge you to find the intellectual courage to realize the enormity of your errors, and make a change that cleanses your mind of your irrational belief in scientific miracles in the Qur’an.

I, for one, will not be gloating when you do, rather, warmly welcoming you into the light of reason.

Peace Bro

Brother Hamza has some things to say.  I found this by following your links 

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/

Peace Bro

“In fact, he never claimed ANY OF THE SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES in the Glorious Quran.  So you can't say that he intentionally made it.”
Right, Muhammad need not have constructed this numerological association.  All that is required is that some scribe prior to or including the scribe of the earliest extant copy of this passage constructed this numerological association.

Writers are well aware of the sounds the script represents.  If the script is absent the vowels in writing the reader mentally fills them in. If a mark is made to represent a vowel then that is an explicit representation of it.  Since you have derived a system of counting consonants and vowels then a 7th century man is capable of deriving the same system of counting consonants and vowels.

You might reply
[015:009]  We have, without doubt, sent down the Message (الذكر); and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
at my suggestion that a later author could manipulate the words in the Qur’an to his own liking.  That is a tautology or circular reasoning or begging the question.  You are using the asserted divinity of the Qur’an as evidence that it could not have been manipulated in a way to merely give the appearance of divinity.

“And he couldn't have made it because the DRAWN LETTERS from VOWELS were not yet determined at the time”  But the mark you call an Alif apparently was there at the time, so a human being could have constructed the same system of numerology as you have today.


“The Glorious Quran has 114 Chapters. The sum of those Chapters is 6555 (1+2+...+114 = 6555). There are also 6236 Noble Verses in the Glorious Quran. Now, IF YOU ADD EACH CHAPTER # with the number of its Verses, then you get a list of numbers. So 1 (first Chapter) + 7 (# of its Verses) = 8. Do this for all Chapters.

1-  The sum of the odd numbers from the list = 6555.
2-  The sum of the even numbers from the list = 6236.

Every time we give you a mind-blowing Miracle you arrogantly dismiss it.  “

What exactly is so mind blowing about 6555 odd numbers from a list and 6236 even numbers from a list?  In a list of numbers generated algorithmically from human writing one would expect roughly equal numbers of even and odd numbers.

I have looked at this about 6 times and I cannot even figure out what your claim is.  Of course, one explanation is that I am a really stupid guy, but my math grades and my technical successes tell me otherwise. 

It’s not arrogance so much as befuddlement as to what you are even claiming to be miraculous about these two roughly equal numbers.

“Again, visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
You keep missing the point!”
Indeed, since I have visited that link many times and cut and pasted from it extensively above in order to comment on it and much of it does indeed seem entirely pointless to me.  But, I enjoy numbers in general so I keep scratching my head trying to figure out how you consider those relatively simple arithmetic expressions to be somehow necessarily of divine origin.

“So no, the Miracles were not just simple human observation.  The Miracles of:
1-  Embryology.”
I have noticed you do not really do much conversing on points I raise.  Mostly you just copy and paste links and lists I have already refuted.

For example, embryology.
Anybody can look at the products of miscarriage and say it is a “clot” or a “chewed thing”.

Your links completely fail to address this obvious refutation, and all the others I have made, so, sorry Brother Osama, but my assertion that there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an stands utterly uncontested in any meaningful way by you.

But, please do tell me how the descriptions of “clot” or “chewed thing” could not have been made by simple observation of the products of miscarriage.

“
1-   Spherical.”
The Greeks measured the diameter of the spherical Earth, no miracle

2- Suspended in Space.
Where else would it be?  Most classical models have the Earth surrounded by some void or heaven or space.

3- Rotating around itself. (emphasis on dahaha and its derivatives)
Couldn’t find this in your below citations

4- Is traveling in Space.
Not in the below citations

5- Also, all celestial bodies are يعرجون Yaa'rujoon (traveling in orbits) in space.  The countless orbits in the Universe, and the day-layer reveals the sun's brightness.  This video is about Noble Verses
32:5,  the below is gibberish, what miracle is this nonsense supposed to be?  Is it a day, a thousand, or fifty thousand years?  The Qur’an claims to be clear, obviously another false claim.
Sahih International: He arranges [each] matter from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him in a Day, the extent of which is a thousand years of those which you count.

34:2, more gibberish
Sahih International: He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein. And He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.

57:4,  this is worse than gibberish, it is just flat out wrong that the heavens and the Earth were made in 6 days.  Obviously, this is a Genesis retelling and Genesis gets it wrong wrong wrong.
Sahih International: It is He who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein; and He is with you wherever you are. And Allah , of what you do, is Seeing.

70:3-4  more gibberish, no, the heavens and the Earth were not created in 6 times fifty thousand years
Sahih International: [It is] from Allah , owner of the ways of ascent.
The angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.


“and others, and the Arabic words عرج , عروج , معارج  and  معراج  that all refer to "going in an orbital and curvy path" in the Glorious Quran and our Islamic Texts.”
Really?  Where? 7 separate translations at corpus.quran.com make no mention of it in the passages you cite.

I know that for a devout Muslim is can be very unpleasant, even painful or upsetting to hear something they feel so deeply about called “gibberish” or “nonsense” or “simple observation”.  But, when we grow to be men we must deal with truth.

All your attempts at demonstrating a scientific miracle in the Qur’an are false.  All my refutations of your assertions stand utterly unrebutted by you.

I hope one day the light of reason shines though your fog of faith.

Peace Bro

Brother Osama,
First, please allow me to apologize for the duplicate post.  I received several server error messages, possibly due to a problem on my end, and it seemed like my post did not go through the first time.

I have gone through a number of the links you provide (not all because there are links within links so following them all to their conclusion would take a great deal of time).

I just cannot find anything that is in any way indicative of miraculous origins.  I have education and experience in math and science.  I really enjoy math and I have a collection of calculus books I have read and worked from.  I opened up some scans that show your own application of numerology to the Qur'an.

I see the pictures of the nebulae, your citations about human development, and a number of other claims you make about miracles of science in the Qur'an.

They are all easily explained as either simple observations well within the capabilities of 7th century men, or a few general inferences lacking anything close to miraculous specificity, or numerological constructions well within the capacity of 7th century men to construct.  Do you have any specific citations of the Qur'an that are not of this kind?

Brother Ahmad,
Ok, so you do not agree with my claim that there are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an, yet I did not notice you make any specific claims of a scientific miracle in the Qur'an.

“On a final note, perhaps if you can explain exactly what is the evidence that has convinced you to believe that there is no God, might give me an idea of what evidence you actually deem as satisfactory or believable.”

Thank you very much indeed for raising this point.  I have been meaning to get into this and I appreciate you bringing it up.

What is a scientific miracle in an ancient text?

First let me say what it is not:
A statement that could have been a simple observation available at that time.
A vague statement that is open to multiple interpretations as may be conveniently fit into facts found out later, as is commonly a tactic used by so called psychics.
Statements that are incorrect in their most direct meaning and can at most be considered possible if a very broad interpretation is used.
A statement written as a prediction but actually addressing events prior the writing of the earliest extant copy of the alleged prediction.
A numerological association that could have been intentionally constructed by human beings deeply dedicated to such a task.

Here is what a scientific miracle in an ancient text would look like if there were such a thing.  I cannot give you a specific example in an actual text because there are no scientific miracles appearing in any ancient text:
A statement commensurate with the knowledge and articulation capacities of an infinite god. such that the messenger clearly is stating such detail so completely out of his contemporary knowledge base that the only possible explanation is that some superhuman intelligence must have told the prophet what to say. (In this case the most likely explanation would be a visitation by space aliens, not a god, but we do not necessarily have to go into that).

Here are a few examples invented for the purposes of illustration:
Gabriel told me today to recite for all the world to hear that there are 92 fundamental atoms to be discovered on this Earth, and 5 of them are essential to the construction of a structure within our bodies too small for us to see, yet it contains the instructions needed to construct each of us.

Gabriel told me to tell you folks that diseases such as smallpox and the common cold are caused, not by demons, but by tiny creatures that are too small for us to see.  When these tiny unseen creatures invade our bodies we become sick.

Gabriel told me to say to everybody that the points of light in the night sky are just like our sun, but a thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand paces distant, except the wandering lights that shine with a steady light, which are actually worlds like our own Earth.  All these worlds and our earth move around the sun in orbits with the fundamental shape of a curve that is expressed as x divided by a times x divided by a plus y divided by b times y divided by b all to equal one.

Gabriel gave me another message for you folks that energy equals mass times the speed of light times the speed of light.  I have no idea what that means but he said one day humanity will understand it and use it to build weapons of terrible destructive power.

As for what convinced me there is no god I would like to emphasize your well-chosen words, that I am convinced.  I do not make the strong claim of being able to absolutely prove there is no god, since I am unable to prove the universal negative.

I turned away from my Christian bible lessons at an early age.  As a child I asked questions like how did all the little creatures make it from Australia and Antarctica and America to the ark, and back again?  Where did the wives of the children of Adam come from?  Why would an infinitely powerful being need to rest?  If god already knows everything in the future what good does it do to pray, is he going to maybe change his mind?  Why would an all knowing god act like such a murderous monster in the time of Moses but then tell us to turn the other cheek a few thousand years later?

Having rejected Christianity for its many absurdities I realized all the religions and all the gods were all just silly inventions of superstitious men.  I was 12 and in the many years since I have continually reexamined my adolescent self-realization of the absence of any god.  I must confess a degree of pride in having come to this realization at a relatively early age.

I am not sure if As'salamu Alaikum is the correct form as a valediction so I will close in my own vernacular
Peace Bro

Brother Ahmad,
Thank you very much indeed for your long and thoughtful reply.

If you wish to interpret the creation story of Allah to be “6 periods” you have rendered the words of Allah meaningless.  There is no predictive value in the word “period” as a measure of time.  No miracle indicated

There is no “clinging clot” stage in human development.  If “clot” is the best description of a developing human being that one can articulate why call him Allah?  Surly the all-knowing creator of humanity can do better than any illiterate attendant to a miscarriage in describing the products of a terminated pregnancy.  You do realize that is all the Qur’an does, don’t you?  How is describing the products of a miscarriage in simplistic terms indicate a miracle?

Living things are made only partly from water, you say, but that is not what Allah said through his messenger.  Apparently you are calling the word of Allah incomplete and unclear.  In truth the simplest observation is that water is essential to life.  Yet a vague and incomplete statement of this most obvious fact is somehow a miracle in the mind of Brother Osama and so many Muslims.

Ok, so the universe was made from smoke, or a fume, or gas, or vapor.  This is how the all knowing speaks clearly and miraculously?  How exactly are these vague and poorly defined alternatives indicative of a miracle?

You go on to speak in very general terms about fragile numerical relationships and many speculations about Muhammad.  Well, fine, if you enjoy thinking about such things that is ok, but that kind of generalized speculation is no evidence of a miracle of any kind.

Actually
23 X 95 = 2185
is also a true expression, so who knows, maybe Allah really wants us to pay attention to the number 23 or the number 95, not the number 19. Numerology is rife with fanciful speculations.  I have seen nothing in Brother Osama’s links or anywhere else remotely requiring divine construction.

What is the most believable hypothesis?  The one we have evidence for.  I have libraries full of evidence that human beings can manipulate words and numbers in great quantities and create vastly intricate and extensive sets of numbers in connection with words.  I have pictures of human beings performing arithmetic calculations.  I have witnessed human beings performing arithmetic calculations.  I am a human being who has performed arithmetic calculations.

No such evidence exists for a supernatural manipulator of numbers.  But please do send me the link to the video if anyone ever catches miraculous math in progress.

Sorry Brother Ahmad, I really do not take any pleasure in causing distress in others, and from time to time I know my words have caused distress in the hearts of Muslims I have communicated with.  Reason tells us there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an, as uncomfortable as it might be to hear me say so.

Brother Osama, it is becoming very apparent that you seem incapable of forming your own words in a conversation that specifically address the actual points of the individual you are supposedly conversing with.

Rather, your only response is to send links to the words of others.  I have found that when an individual cannot explain a subject in his own words then that individual does not understand the subject under discussion.

To be evidence of a miracle the text must convey information beyond the capacity of a 7th century man to observe, count, or easily infer from ordinary observations.

Iron was known to fall from space by simple observation.  There is no miracle in writing “he sent down iron”.  Anybody who picked up an iron meteorite could easily observe that iron has been sent down.  Your links do nothing to counter this simple fact.  Thus, the mere observation that iron was “sent down” is no evidence for a miracle.

To be a numerical miracle the numerical construction must be beyond the capabilities of a 7th century man to make.  I gave the example of how easy it is to describe a 950 year old man in 950 letters, as any student is capable of doing.  Yet, this construction of words at the level of a high school writing assignment is fallaciously put forth as proof of a miracle. 

“StardustyPsyche is a really great man who lived in the USA for 58 years”  Note, I have described a 58 year old man using 58 characters, therefore I am god!!!