Author Topic: Can I get a answer to this?(my debater said this)  (Read 1888 times)

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Offline AMuslimDude213

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Can I get a answer to this?(my debater said this)
« on: July 23, 2017, 02:41:47 AM »
"4:11-12 Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females; if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left a child; if no child, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. The distribution in all cases (is) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to any one). Thus is it ordained by Allah. and Allah is All-knowing, Most Forbearing.

4:176 They ask thee for a legal decision. Say: Allah directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance: If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance: If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them): if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye go astray. And Allah hath knowledge of all things."

Yeah, great, you have identified the relevant passages.  Now, explain what to do if a man dies intestate and is survived by his two parents, three or more daughters (but no sons), and one or more wives.

"1. The first major point to note is that there are two types of inheritors. The first category are those who have recieved a fixed inheritance, which includes the spouse and the parents. The second category includes those who take their share AFTER the shares of the first category are distributed. This includes siblings and children."

How in the heck are children included in this second category?  They obviously belong to the first.  Again, read 4:11 - Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females; if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half

Nowhere is it stated that the children's share comes after any allowances are made for any other heirs.  That is a complete fabrication.  You are no longer a Muslim because you have denied the clear words of the Koran.

"So if we understand this, we know that the parents and the wife would recive their amount, and the daughters would get a share of what remains. This explanation on its own solves the problem, because:

-1/3 for the parents together
-1/8 for the wife
-And for the daughters 2/3 of what remains = 2/3 of 13/24=13/36 of the total amount

So what remains after is 13/72 of the original amount. This remaining portion is to be given to whoever the deceased person appointed as their heir. The deceased can choose to have it given in charity or to the local masjid etc. If they have not specified any destination for the remaining wealth then it is given to the closest male relative."

Where are you getting any of this nonsense, Muslim?  The daughters' share is clearly out of the total estate; not after prior takers.

"2. Let us now address the specific claims. The first claim is that 2/3 (daughters) +1/3 (parents) +1/8 (wife) will add up to more than available. But the truth is that the Qur'an does not specify what the parents and the wife will recieve if there are three daughters. The Qur'an states that the parents get 1/6 each if the deceased left a child. And the wife gets 1/8 if the deceased left a child. Both times it is singular, but in the proposed scenario, there are three daughters, not one."

Oh, so you think that the Koran LEFT THIS OUT?  In that case, you're even more up a creek with this document as any kind of a legal code.

"Some confusion may have caused this misunderstanding because in some translations, the word walad (child) is mistranslated as children. But in most translations like Pickthall, Asad, Shakir, Daryabadi, Irving, etc. the word has been correctly translated in the singular form."

Yeah, and if we have this same phrasing ("left a child") in English law then it would also extend to circumstances in which more than one child survived the decedent because it would be read as "at least one child."  In the following SENTENCE, the same word (waladun) is used in a form in which it is clearly meant to refer to "any child."  "For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left a child; if no child [lit. not any child, where "any child" is "waladun"], and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth."  So it's clear that it's being used as an indefinite nominative and not restricted to a single child.

Why do Muslims have to lie about the very grammatical structure of the Koran in order to make any sense of the book?  Isn't it written in plain Arabic that is easy to understand?
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Offline H.

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Re: Can I get a answer to this?(my debater said this)
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2017, 03:15:33 AM »
Let me first extract the translation that  have provided from Adullah Yusuf Ali for verse 4:11; and 4:12. I quote;

“(Koran 4:11)
Allah directs you as regards your children's (Inheritance): to the male a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two ormore, Their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her, share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers the mother has a sixth...

(Koran 4:12)
In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, If ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment.”

Now your claim is that, according to the above verses, if a man dies and leaves three daughters, two parents and his wife, three daughters together will receive 2/3 of the share, the parents will receive 1/3 of the share and the wife will receive 1/8 of the share.

If you read the Qur’an in Arabic you will see that at the beginning of 4.11 Allah uses the plural word in Arabic ‘awlaad’ for “…your children’s (inheritance)…” but then Allah uses the singular word in ‘walad’ for “…if the deceased left a child...” Therefore, the above translation, ‘if the deceased left children’, is incorrect as the Qur’an uses the word walad and not awlaad, and walad is the Arabic word for a child, or one child, where as awlaad is the word for more than one child or children. Pickthall and many other Quran translators have given a proper translation.

Now let us look at 4.11 a little closer. We are told that two or more daughters (if and only if the man dies with no sons) will receive 2/3’s of the man’s inheritance. We are also told that the parents will receive a sixth (1/6) of the man’s inheritance if the deceased left a child (not children) (to each, thus we take 1/6 + 1/6 = 2/6 or 1/3). In the example that you provided, there are more than one child. Therefore, the Quran does not fix here the share of the parents as 1/3 in this particular instance. The share of the wife will be 1/8 as per verse 4:12.

Now let us test this out. Let’s use the scenario stated by you. A man dies and leaves behind three daughters, his parents, and a wife. Because we are not told what his parents will get if he haschildren,we must then substitute a variable in place of his parents, and we get the following simple equation: 2/3 (for daughters from verse 4:11) + 1/8 (for wife from verse 4.12) + X (for parents) = 1 (using 1 as 100% the man’s wealth) Let’s solve this.
2/3 + 1/8 = 19/24
19/24 + X = 1
X = 1 – 19/24

X = 5/24
And this works as 2/3 + 1/8 + 5/24 is indeed equal to 1.

I hope that you now understood how to distribute wealth in the given scenario provided by you. Now let us look at the second claim.

You also claim that there is a further discrepancy in this matter in the case of a man who leaves a mother, a wife, and two sisters. You are arguing that if the allotted shares are added up the total exceeds the total estate, i.e, 1/3 (mother) + 2/3 (sisters) + 1/4 (wife) = 5/4 = 1.25 will be more than the available property.

You are again mistaken. To arrive at the said allotted shares, here you refers to the shares allotted in Surah 4, verse 176 of the Qur’an. You have conveniently quoted only part of the verse (“...If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but not child) Please take the Quran and check what is there in the dotted portion. I will quote for you the entire verse.
“Allah directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance: If a woman dies and leaves no child, her brother takes her inheritance: If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance. If there are brothers and sisters, the male takes twice the share of the female.

In the above verse, the case described is that of a man who is called in Arabic "kalalah" which is correctly translated by Yusuf Ali as one who leaves "no descendants or ascendants." This ayah refers to a man who leaves neither parent nor child. At the time of his death his mother already lays in her own grave and as such can lay no claim to a share of inheritance. Then how can you come with an example of a man leaving behind a mother, two sisters and wife and then evolve your fantasies based on this verse?

Also see: http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/the_inheritance_law__by_ansar_al__adl
http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/ma_addup.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltoalisina3.htm
Different answers found here: https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/1408/how-to-solve-the-following-problem-regarding-distribution-of-inheritance-shares

http://theislampath.com/smf/index.php?topic=4709.0




Offline Dr Tazeen

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Re: Can I get a answer to this?(my debater said this)
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2017, 05:54:21 PM »
1.

Deluding critic who has not understood the verses at all.
Dividing the inheritance after paying debt does not mean there are categories.
It simply means how to start.

Daughters would get with the parents and sons, just after the portion of legacies and debt has been granted.It is not like that the parents,wives and sons would get the share, and then the debts, and after that the daughters would have their share.It is just the poor understanding of the critic.

And it actually adds up as well, if you know some maths.

https://nocontradictionsinquran.wordpress.com/2014/11/04/response-21/

2.

Critic is super anxious for three daughters,

Both times it is singular, but in the proposed scenario, there are three daughters, not one."

But see the verse,

"4:11-Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females; if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left a child; if no child, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. The distribution in all cases (is) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise

Clear verse for three daughters as well.

Offline Sama

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Re: Can I get a answer to this?(my debater said this)
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2017, 05:33:30 PM »
quranscientificerror.blogspot.com/2013/08/re-mathematical-error-in-hereditary.html

 

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