Author Topic: Trinity  (Read 25238 times)

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Offline JesusisGod

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« on: July 08, 2014, 12:40:37 AM »
One doesn't need to appeal to the Bible to see that the trinity is taught. In nature we see the teaching in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. We know that this material universe consists of three parts time space and matter but it is all the same universe. If we break these three apart we see that time again is separated into three but it is all time past present and future. Space we live in a three dimensional universe length width and height. Matter also exists in three solid liquid and gas. Nevertheless I believe the biggest and most easily recognizable to all of humanity is the family a family consists of children a mother and a father. Before any one gets any ideas this concept is explained in the bible because all of the believers in Christ as God and savior are adopted into Gods family as Children. As a person without any revelation from God |I could make an argument that I would be with God forever if only I was His son because a great being like |God must forgive his children all that they do as an earthly father forgives his children. The question is who can connect with me a perfect God to be His son The answer would be a perfect son Jesus.   

Offline submit

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2014, 11:19:45 AM »
^Problem with believing in God appearing as son of God on earth and holy spirit being part of 'triune oneness' was never taught in 7 Laws by gentile prophet Noah nor by 10 Laws Israeltie prophets.

Only the Christian Romans believe in such Triune-Oneness God. Something really new and NEVER BEEN heard before. Read Deuteronomy 13 where God reminds the Israelites about the coming of new/unheard God that certainly refer to Triune Oneness God. Deut 13 can not be referring to idol God as idol worshiping is not new and have been heard before during the time of prophet Abraham (as).

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2014, 12:17:15 AM »
The reason the statement is worded in the way that it is, is to get people to think of God outside of the text they have received. God is certainly greater than the Bible and He is greater than the Quran. These books are what people study to get a further understanding of who God is. I would like the people reading the question to consider the information present, not what has been written in books. God has left a testimony of himself in what He has created, so that the entire world is without an excuse before Him on judgement day. I could get into the Hebrew words used for God in the old testament, but I think my point has yet to be answered. Why does the universe we exist in have so many parts pointing back to a three in one concept its not foreign or new Time space matter and families have existed in threes from the beginning. There is a natural precedence for this thought. I believe God is three in one and this belief extends beyond what I'm taught in a book. What I have read in the Bible is confirmed by what I see in reality, so I accept it as true. Nevertheless, not all men have the witness of scripture, so they are taught by what has been made. God is making Himself known to humanity not just in words but through What He has made. Why do you believe God is an absolutely one solitary person, and how can he relate to us if He is again He is spirit we are not He is infinite we are not he is perfect we are not he is all powerful we are weak If he cannot relate to us than how can he judge the world? If He is a solitary being then why does the creation speak to us so clearly in threes?   

Offline submit

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2014, 04:10:37 AM »
well in Islam, you can not imagine about God using using the concept of His creations and try to relate to it about the existence/nature/attributes of God.
Almighty God be like a family? Almighty God like mixture of space,time,matter..? Almighty God like spirit? Almighty God like flesh? All of those are things created by God.

That is why in Islam , one need to strive hard fulfilling what was ordained by God. to be righteous so that the reward in the afterlife is to meet God the creator.

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2014, 08:30:46 PM »
God transcends His creation. I'm not saying that space time and matter are God, but when God created these things He left an imprint of Himself. The universe could not exist in the balance it does today if an Omniscient mind had not created it, so god's that make mistakes are automatically ruled out as are gods who are less than sovereign because their wills could be overruled. I'm saying that in the creation of time space matter and the family God is teaching men, not in words but as only a Creator can through what He has made, that He exists in three persons God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit.

As for your second comment, if Islam is the fulfilling of what God has ordained in order to achieve the after life then were all going to hell no one can be as perfect as God even to the extent that we follow rules we will fail. For example, this month is ramadan and I can almost guarantee some one you know has broken the fast either on accident or on purpose. Have you ever failed to fast in this month? I fasted yesterday so as to not offend one of my Muslim friends and its no walk in the park.

Offline submit

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2014, 06:36:39 AM »
That is why we have Judgement Day, if good deeds surpassed sins. You will be safe.

There is no imprint left by God in subjects like space, time, matter nor families, as those creations are not even equal to each other. Thus one can not use it to relate to thee entities in equality being in oneness. Hope it make sense to you?

One simple way to check about the belief of Romans Christians which is obviously in the wrong is by checking the message brought by past prophets. Even before the time of Israelites, prophet Noah never preach about God having equals, or triune in nature. The Israelites too do not preach about triune or believe Holy Spirit being God.

Only the Romans Christians who misinterpret the Israelite writings belief in such falsehood.

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2014, 01:47:55 AM »
There are numerous things wrong with your judgement day theory. Do not deceive yourself the amount of sins we commit will always out weigh our good. The most devout Muslim I know today did not fast during your holy month. How rich is God in His wisdom to allow this to occur in my life at the proper time. Our good actions are utterly disgusting for God because they are not perfect in nature, yet He is. He cannot and will not accept us based on our actions, which we may see as good, because in His eyes they are putrid and mired in sin, worse than a pig. We are worse than swine before a holy and perfect God, He cannot accept us based on what we do. I have met judges more righteous than the god you portray. If I do him some favors,  he will let me go for all the terrible things I have done to him and others (and we all sin against God and our fellow men). Will God accept bribes from men. Who can give anything to God If He is the giver of all good things and has no need of anything He doesn't need your obedience, and he will not accept the few time you may think you obeyed as payment for the life time of sin you lived. We owe only obedience to the law as it has authority over us. In america you don't win awards or praise for obeying the law only condemnation for breaking it. How much before God do we owe perfect obedience and fail every hour of the day. We are all condemned by our sin, or will God not punish the guilty for their crimes? Why, because we are "obedient" sometimes? Is God corrupt that He would pervert justice? I tell you one thing I would rather be in hell for all eternity than to be with a god who is unjust. Before you say he forgives he is all forgiving then I tell you two things forgiveness without punishment in a court of law is a breach of justice and payment received for forgiveness is no forgiveness at all. The forgiveness of God by nature must be greater than men, and I know many parents who forgive their children without payment of obedience. If their is some cosmic scale we are weighed on to determine our life in heaven then surely Gods standards are perfection His perfection demands perfection not human goodness, but perfection from his creation or is the heaven you believe in less than perfect perhaps your god is less then perfect. Remember Adam was kicked out of paradise and the entire world was cursed as the result of one sin How much greater punishment do we deserve who live in sin? An eternity in hell is what all men deserve. By my stern words i mean to shock you into studying harder. I don't mean to shame you I'm just as guilty before God as all men I deserve hell for my sins against a holy God, but good deeds are not the answer to salvation. Salvation is found only in God. (You know that I mean Jesus Christ by my username but God The Father God The Son and God The holy Spirit all saved me). I don't ask you to read the bible, although that would be the best thing for You because it speaks about the true God who in the old testament is called Gods (the Hebrew word Elohim) and in the new testament is revealed as Father Son and Spirit, but to examine what it is you believe.  Because your careless words are blaspheming God. I am willing to show you through your own books, but my fear is that you will come to see God as some one who only resides in books and the words of men. What I would do is try praying to God the Father through Jesus or even to Jesus Himself for Guidance. I know how crazy and bad that sounds to you, but I would not have come to know my Heavenly Father but Through my perfect God and Savior Jesus Christ.

You say there is no imprint left by God in his creation yet if that were true men could never find God for we would not have the capacity to do so because we wouldn't be cognizant of our own existence let alone that of God's. We are made in the image of God are we not? We are self-aware, creative, and have knowledge of good, and in the beginning only did good ( i'm talking about Adam). If I can't see God in what He has made then I will never find him in the words or writings of a man. For what existed first The creation or the words of men. If God has not made things so that we would find Him then He cannot judge the world because where there is no law there is no condemnation. He really can't find fault with men who say their is no God if they were not constantly being bombarded with His existence in everything He has made. If your god didn't make things in this world so that we would find him then my God is greater because He did, and by the definition of God only one is true and the greater must be God. I don't think you put to much thought into what you wrote because you don't even use verses in your posts. Do you believe in the Quran? If so show me a verse in the Quran that says their is no imprint of God in what He has made. Space, time, matter, and families are not equal to one another but time is divided into three equal parts past, present, and future. Is the future greater in quality or quantity then the past or present no they are all equally divided into seconds minutes hours days. And they are all considered time. As a whole if one talks about all time then they must refer to both the future and the past not just the present. So the same with God if I address God as a whole then I talk to all of them. Different persons One God. Space is the same thing length, width, depth they are all space measured the same way. if you only see one then you see in one dimension which confuses your perception of what is really there. Which is why you come to wrong conclusions about God. Your focused so much on only one aspect and don't take every thing into account as seen in your concept of a judgement day you Seemed to forget God has to punish sin and how His stature as the perfect creator demands perfection. I'm telling You that in the being, we as American Christians call God ( who all the prophets called Gods), there exists three persons The one most people have no problem seeing the Father The Son, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. And Matter H2O is expressed in three different ways ice water and steam which each perform separate functions yet it is the same chemical compound. In the same way, Jesus is the one that died for our sins God the Father punished Him and The Holy Spirit empowered Him to Live the perfect life so that He could be the sacrifice for our sins. They are all the same nature perfect all powerful all knowing infinite etc. but They do different thing all in perfect unison as  exemplified above.
As for Your last point I've mentioned many times the Hebrew word Elohim which is translated as God but in Hebrew it means Gods im being the masculine plural ending for a noun. I'm aware of many people who will say that even in the quran we is a form of respect for God, but in either case an all intelligent Being would not in His revelation, especially His First revelation to man use a word that would be 1 not true and 2 so confusing to the one reading his words. From genesis to revelation God exists in three persons. Search Gods' words they will reveal a being who is three in one. 

Offline submit

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2014, 08:27:37 PM »
The most devout Muslim I know today did not fast during your holy month.

Then if sins outweigh good deeds, he/she will enter hellfire until certain period of punishment.

Salvation is found only in God. (You know that I mean Jesus Christ by my username but God The Father God The Son and God The holy Spirit all saved me)

Yes only God can give salvation. Not the creation that is son of man or spirit. Triune God belief is totally something new and been widely spread by Roman Christians and not Children of Israel by the way.
I don't ask you to read the bible, although that would be the best thing for You because it speaks about the true God who in the old testament is called Gods (the Hebrew word Elohim) and in the new testament is revealed as Father Son and Spirit, but to examine what it is you believe.

Thats good of you talking about Israelite scriptures and Roman Christian scriptures. Do you know that God reveal Himself as YHWH (I will be whom I shall be) . Why did God not proclaim in plurality but as singular God?

As for Roman scriptures, you can never find the books in New Testament as corpus prior to 4th century. If you check the  for surviving original manuscripts, you will see those books were found separated in different regions meaning they were written by different Roman scribes. Only in 4th century , Christians choose to pick which books to be compiled into New Testament.

So the stories inside New Testament are not original anymore.
We are made in the image of God are we not?

when God speaks, God use We/I/Us/Me, but you can NEVER find verses referring to God as “They/Their”.

Then God said, “Let Us make man ‘in Our image, according to Our likeness’; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Genesis 1:26

God was speaking with majestic authority thus using Us/Our in Gen1:26.

God said clearly “in Our Image according to Our likeness” referring to mankind becoming rulers and creators on earth. Not by any means using the physical of God to create shape of man and female, but rather figure-like to that of God having dominance over universe, but for mankind they having dominance over other living creature on earth.

(followed by singular third person verse) And God created man ‘in His (notice verse do Not use THEIR) own image, in the image of God’ created He him; male and female created He them. Genesis 1:27

And if we use Pauline-Christian logic. Who's image was the verse referring to? Father? As Christians should know that Word and Spirit do not have image.
Do Christians believe Father/Word/Holy Spirit have image or all three were imageless?

I've mentioned many times the Hebrew word Elohim which is translated as God but in Hebrew it means Gods im being the masculine plural ending

like i have mentioned many times too. Jews and Arabs have no issues about it. But non semitics people have misinterpret the portrayal of plural endings.

Offline The Comforter

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2014, 08:36:07 PM »
Elohim is a plural of majesty, even Jews say it.

and, why don't you read the bible in the language it was revealed in?

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2014, 02:38:19 AM »
Don't deceive Your self Why would an all intelligent being reveal himself to men in such a half hazard way it's idiotic. Is it not at all possible that when God YHWH called Himself Gods He meant Gods. I dont need a guru to tell me what the Bible says |God clearly calls himself |Gods many times whether its elohim or in deuteronomy When it says the YHWH our Gods are echad a composite oneness If it was just the plural of majesty, which did not even exist back when the Bible was first written, then Why does God call himself a composite unity(echad) rather than an absolute oneness (yachid). Muslims and Jews are stubborn and don't want to believe Jesus or The Spirit are God so they believe whatever they want. Plural of majesty didn't exist back then so Why would God do it. If it is plural of majesty then God would always revere Himself and so would writers, messengers of God, yet the Bible also calls God singular all be it far less times. Is God disrespecting Him self when He is referred as singular, which He can't do  , or is He trying to mislead those to whom He is talking by referring to Himself as something He is not in other words lying also which He cannot do. An all intelligent being wouldn't refer to Himself in plural form When He is talking to Jews in 1,500 b.c. so that he can appease people in European countries who started the plural majesty thing in maybe 1000 a.d. it is illogical and would mislead many people over the years. I might take you seriously if The plural majesty thing was around when the Bible was written, but it is not in the bible and there are no historical references of it by any of the kings or gods of that time. The records of kings like pharaoh or of babylon and their stories of gods don't have it. If he was merely doing it to revere Himself why didn't any prophet tell us that and Why does God not tell us that He calls Himself God's as a form of respect? Or I could take you seriously if God was always referred to as elohim because God and His prophets will always respect God, but God is also referred to as singular, Eloah, which would be disrespectful. Something that neither |God or His prophets would do. Stop being stubborn and read the bible regularly God is plural. My main point was to show you outside of the Bible that He was more than one if You want to go to the bible I am more than Happy to do it God straight up tells us They are Gods, more than one, if you don't want to believe that is on you. |But it is both in creation in the bible and in the quran where God calls himself more than one you have no excuse not to believe. If it was not true then why does the creation constantly remind us that He is more than one. Also why would god tell us He is more than one? |I am not going to trust Jews or any man who are giving their interpretation of the Bible and who are known to lie and misunderstand God. over |YHWH| Gods themselves who cannot lie.

I do study the bible in it's original language when it is difficult to understand, but i don't read it all the time in greek or hebrew because I don't speak that language. I have a very limited understanding of these languages. I have read many different translations and |God The holy Spirit helps me see when it is a good translation or not I| know God and I can tell when a verse in the bible is translated well or not. God helps me see the bad or iffy verses then I look them up and sure enough the verses are translated wrong. |This happens all the time. What you happen to forget is that God gives understanding not the language or even the scriptures. If you want I can show you where even your own prophet says that about The Spirit, just as I claimed, gives understanding. But I have a feeling that you don't want to know because if You can't even believe God how will you believe His prophets.

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2014, 04:21:25 AM »
First point |Hell is eternal this is an excerpt of Is hell eternal.  The problem with Allah allowing Someone into heaven after a certain amount of punishment in hell is that it takes away God's hatred of sin. If He doesn't punish sin eternally then He doesn't hate sin. This is not a case I've heard any Muslim make most Muslims I meet agree that sin is a problem between humanity and God. As far as Allah being the most merciful this is not the case with a half punishment in hell because the ones who are supposed to receive mercy are being punished. Mercy is not receiving what you deserve for wronging somebody. In this case they do receive punishment so Allah is not being merciful towards them. At least not the most merciful because certainly there are even some humans who have forgiven someone completely and without cause for retribution. If God is the greatest possible being in existence then He can't forgive half way. God is obligated by His great nature to forgive completely when He chooses to forgive.  I see the approach the man is taking in arguing for this position but I believe it perverts Gods holy character to say He will allow some one into heaven after punishment. What God does he does infinitely if He love's someone he will love them infinitely if He rejects someone he will do so infinitely if He forgives someone He will do so infinitely. What this teaching suggests is that people make it to heaven on different merits either because they were forgiven or because they finished with the punishment Allah had for them in which case he is not the most merciful but merely fulfilling justice in punishing someone for their sins that is if Allah's punishment is not eternal. Which I believe the quran teaches that it is and if it is he is not being just in his punishment to allow some into heaven after punishment. The biggest problem with Muslims concept of God is their idea of forgiveness. How can God be a just judge if He is also forgiving/merciful. How does any one make it to heaven if we have all transgressed God's laws either by going against our God given conscious or against the laws written in holy books. God by his very just and holy (perfect) nature has to judge and reject us for our imperfections because if He accepts any one without a punishment then He is not just. If He is not just how can He judge? I think the real question here is How can God forgive.

second point You don't believe Salvation is found in God you are trying to save yourself by having your good deeds out weigh your sins I am trusting God to save me I trust that God will forgive me Because He says He will if I believe Jesus is God and He Died and |Rose again to take me to Heaven. I am Trusting Jesus God the Son to take me to Heaven, Not my Good deeds. Isaiah 53 speaks of Jesus being killed for our sins. It speaks of Jesus justifying transgressors the prophets say that YHWH will justify sinners. If God gives salvation and Isaiah says salvation is because of the messiah then Jesus is YHWH or God this is the verse that says that  Isaiah 45:25 Isaiah also says The messiah did not lie all men lie only God cannot lie. You get all the info from muslim sites but All the apostles of Jesus call him God because that is what Jesus taught early church documents also confirm |Jesus was worshiped as God as do historians of Jesus' time saying  we |Christians are teachers of a strange deity and we sing to Jesus as one would a |God. Its not a new thing even before Jesus was born it was said they would call him emmanual God is with us Jesus means YHWH save and |He called Himself the Savior Jesus Said before Abraham was I am claiming the name of God YHWH for Himself. What would the roman Christians have to gain by distorting Christianity in such a way why would they say Jesus is God. If God protects the quran and the bible was also written by God why doesn't he or did |He protect the |Bible. When the quran specifically says the words of God cannot be Changed.

It is not will be but am a verb. This is the name of God |God is not saying He is singular names have neither plurality or singular they are what we are identified as. In neither case do |You prove Your point because Jesus claims this name of God for Himself as Does the Father and The Spirit. They are all YHWH and They are all one echad composite oneness Deuteronomy after saying God three times it says God is Echad a composite untiy. study it up it's their you cannot get arounf it it is in the old testament newtestament nature and even the quran has God calling himself We. Why do you deny so much evidence in front of your face if the bible had made it to me in some far away land and I could read it I would conclude God is more then One person yet He is one composite entity.     

Its funny where do you get the idea that my bible was written in the 4'th century if that were true,you have a big problem on your hand because the angel jabriel told your prophet that the injuils were the word of God to the Christians which they certainly would not be if they had fraudulent writers. who lived 400 years after Christ. Was jabriel lying or is mohamed lying is God lying? Be careful what you say it seems you are willing to accept just about anything to ignore the truth taught in the bible. Keep in mind, you have to call your religion a lie if you say mine is a lie. Nevertheless, your statements are not true the new testament has over 15,000 peices and whole copies we call them manuscripts and they all have different dates because they are all copies of what was original we don't have the originals. But we do have peices of manuscripts that date to the early first century  meaning they were written before that. It doesn't matter that they are not all together they are not supposed to be one book but many books collected as Gods revealed word over generations. Each one book is Gods word individually. Early church fathers quote extensively from all the books we have in our Bible well before the New Testament was I guess in your mind officially gathered. |But the Christians were being killed for there beliefs its hard to keep all the books from destruction when every one hates you and wants to kill you and eradicate your beliefs from earth. Its a miracle our religion made it let alone our books. God is showing you just how powerful He is. None of what you say in this section is true where did you get this information. Any council in the 4th century does not mean that because the books were gathered in this century they were written in this century. Roman scribes could have wrote the new testament that was their job to copy information exactly as written scribes don't write their own stories they make copies of older documents. Not sure the person who told you this knew what he was talking about.
I'm not sure what you mean by saying that the stories in the bible are not original but if you mean they retell alot of the same stories about Jesus'life thats true they are eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life few of the stories in the gospels are unique to one gospel they are telling what happened to Jesus during his life of course they are going to overlap. However, if you mean they are not trustworthy then you are wrong the bible is most trustworthy book in allantiquity it has the most copies fromall different ages so we can teel precisely what was written the margin of error is less than 2 % and the 2 % that don't match are all misspellings or spelling variations. among all the disputed verses of the bible that don't match 100% none of these verses change any teaching of the new testament. This is way better than any book in antiquity. whose margin of error is 15 to 40 persent and with fewer than 1000 copies. Thebibleis trustworthy.

The quote you give me is way off it does not even deal with the Fact that Calls Him self Gods Plural majesty is things like we and us but it never extended to a king calling himself men or people saying that king is a manly men. Nevertheless I will respond that the writer does mention the men are created in God's image they can create and are  rulers I mentioned this somewhere too remember I also said we know what is right and are self aware. These are the characteristics men are created with which are originally God's. I don't understand the point the author is trying to make because All of the people who are God The Father The Son And The Holy Spirit Have these Characteristics. The bible says That God is a composite unity they share everything yet they are not the same person. We Christians believe that We were created in the image of Elohim that of Gods plural we share their image they all have that image they are all creative they all rule they all are self aware and know what is right. The verse that is quoted says itself we are made in the image of Gods elohim plural. I can only assume the person doesn't write it to mislead others. or he is so blind he can't see what is clearly in front of his face. I believe all three have image. as explained above.

plural endings mean just that plural. perhaps you should consider that arabs and jews are the ones with the problems after all the bible does say that Jesus was going to be rejected by His people many times so that the gentiles could be saved. Dont trust jews or scholars which can lie and misinterperet to fit what they believe over God

Offline shabeer_hassan

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2014, 02:33:13 AM »
dear brother: you says
#The problem with Allah allowing Someone into heaven after a certain amount of punishment in hell is that it takes away God's hatred of sin. If He doesn't punish sin eternally then He doesn't hate sin.

a simple question i will answer u'r point ,consider a penal law if a man theft 1$ ,one BEAT punishment ,there r two men A & B.........A theft 1$ & B theft 5$,what is the moral punishment about them? A-one beat ,B -five beat is it? punishment being moral how much crime they did it is it? according to u'r point a judge should be punish them Eternally for theft only 1$ ,WHAT LOGIC WAS THAT??????????????????
20: 15. "Verily, the Hour is coming and My Will is to keep it hidden that every person may be rewarded for that which he strives.
16. "Therefore, let not the one who believes not therein (i.e. in the Day of Resurrection, Reckoning, Paradise and Hell, etc.), but follows his own lusts, divert you therefrom, lest you perish.

45: 15. Whosoever does a good deed, it is for his ownself, and whosoever does evil, it is against (his ownself). Then to your Lord you will be made to return.
45: 22. And Allâh has created the heavens and the earth with truth, in order that each person may be recompensed what he has earned, and they will not be wronged.
84: 6. O man! Verily, you are returning towards your Lord with your deeds and actions (good or bad), a sure returning, so you will meet (i.e. the results of your deeds which you did).
 7. Then as for he who is given his record in his right hand,
101: 6. Then as for him whose balance (of good deeds) will be heavy,
7. He will live a pleasant life (in Paradise).
8. But as for him whose balance (of good deeds) will be light,
9. He will have his home in Hawiyah (pit, i.e. Hell).
102: 6. Verily, You shall see the blazing Fire (Hell)!
7. And again, you shall see it with certainty of sight!
8. Then, on that Day, you shall be asked about the delight (you indulged in, in this world)!
4: 111. And whoever earns sin, he earns it only against himself. And Allâh is Ever All¬Knowing, All¬Wise.

polytheist going to eternal HELL:

65: 8. And many a town (population) revolted against the Command of its Lord and His Messengers, and We called it to a severe account (i.e. torment in this worldly life), and shall punish it with a horrible torment (in Hell, in the Hereafter).
9. So it tasted the evil result of its disbelief, and the consequence of its disbelief was loss (destruction in this life and an eternal punishment in the Hereafter).
43: 74. Verily, the Mujrimûn (criminals, sinners, disbelievers, etc.) will be in the torment of Hell to abide therein forever.
64: 10. But those who disbelieved (in the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism) and denied Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they will be the dwellers of the Fire, to dwell therein forever. And worst indeed is that destination.
u must be understand the islamic stand of GOOD AND BAD:
Any jurisprudence that does not relate good and evil to the
life of Prophet is bound to fail. Nationalism, casteism or language
cannot deal with universal good. Neither can rationalism. The
European rationalism does not see anything wrong in extra marital
relationship and homosexuality (Barbara Smoker: Humanism
P. 82-84). Even Mr. Idamaruku who is supposed to be the most
progressive thinker in India is not in a position to approve this.
His son in law the European traveller, Yoran Scarner writes ``They
(Idamaruku and his Wife) did not allow Geeta to come out with
me until marriage was legally registered. Indian society does not
allow premarital relationship. Even the most progressive Indian
cannot tolerate dating which is quite common in western countries’’
(Yoran Scaner: Thousand faces of India P. 29). If rationalism
is to distinguish between good and evil, the good in England
will become evil in India.
As far as Islam is concerned the words and deeds of the
prophet always remain as guidelines. We just need look into it to
ascertain what is good in anything. If we wish to distinguish between
good and evil without the help of divine revelations we
will be forced to change their definition from time to time. This is
what happened with regard to the concepts of Ahimsa and rationalism.
A clear and definited understanding of good and evil help us
to stand for good and to free ourselves from evil. This is what
happened in the history of Islam. The fact that Muslims wish to
get reward for their deeds in the world hereafter also makes them
sincere and ready for service and then showmanship or exhibi-
tionism is practically eliminated.

Offline shabeer_hassan

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2014, 02:43:20 AM »
Allah never takes injustice against his slave:

3:182. This is because of that (evil) hitch your hands have sent before you. And certainly, Allah is never unjust to (His) slaves.
3:108. These are the Verses of Allâh: We recite them to you (O Muhammad SAW) in truth, and Allâh wills no injustice to the 'Alâmîn (mankind and jinns).
4: 40. Surely! Allah wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a small ant), but if there is any good (done), He doubles it, and gives from Him a great reward.
4: 147. Why should Allah punish you if you have thanked (Him) and have believed in Him. And Allah is Ever All Appreciative (of good), All-knowing.
11: 101. We wronged them not, but they wronged themselves. So their âliha (gods), other than Allah, whom they invoked, profited them naught when there came the Command of your Lord, nor did they add aught (to their lot) but destruction.
11: 117. . And your Lord would never destroy the towns wrongfully, while their people were right-doers.
17: 16. And when we decide to destroy a town (population), we (first) send a definite order (to obey Allah and be righteous) to those among them [or we (first) increase in number those of its population] who are given the good things of this life. Then, they transgress therein, and thus the word (of torment) is justified against it (them). Then we destroy it with complete destruction.
26: 208. And never did we destroy a township, but it had its warners.
209. By way of reminder, and we have never been unjust.
27: 85. And the Word (of torment) will be fulfilled against them, because they have done wrong, and they will be unable to speak (in order to defend themselves).
28: 59. And never will your Lord destroy the towns (populations) until He sends to their mother town a Messenger reciting to them Our Verses. And never would we destroy the towns unless the people thereof are Zâlimûn (polytheists, wrong-doers, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, oppressors and tyrants).
29: 40. So We punished each (of them) for his sins, of them were some on whom We sent Hâsiban (a violent wind with shower of stones) [as the people of Lout (Lot)], and of them were some who were overtaken by As¬Saihah [torment ¬ awful cry, etc. (as Thamûd or Shu'aib's people)], and of them were some whom We caused the earth to swallow [as Qârûn (Korah)], and of them were some whom We drowned [as the people of Nûh (Noah), or Fir'aun (Pharaoh) and his people]. It was not Allah Who wronged them, but they wronged themselves.
30: 9. Do they not travel in the land, and see what was the end of those before them? They were superior to them in strength, and they tilled the earth and populated it in greater numbers than these (pagans) have done, and there came to them their Messengers with clear proofs. Surely, Allah wronged them not, but they used to wrong themselves.
10. Then evil was the end of those who did evil, because they belied the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, Messengers, etc.) of Allah and made mock of them.
30: 47. And indeed we did send Messengers before you (O Muhammad SAW) to their own peoples. They came to them with clear proofs, then, we took vengeance on those who committed crimes (disbelief, setting partners in worship with Allah, sins, etc.), and (as for) the believers it was incumbent upon us to help (them).
35: 45. And if Allah were to punish men for that which they earned, He would not leave a moving (living) creature on the surface of the earth, but He gives them respite to an appointed term, and when their term comes, then verily, Allah is Ever All Seer of His slaves.
38: 14. Not one of them but belied the Messengers, therefore My Torment was justified,
39: 71. And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord (Allah, when He will come to judge among men) and the Book will be placed (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged.
40: 31. ……… And Allah wills no injustice for (His) slaves.
41: 17. And as for Thamûd, We showed and made clear to them the Path of Truth (Islâmic Monotheism) through Our Messenger, (i.e. showed them the way of success), but they preferred blindness to guidance, so the Sâ'iqah (a destructive awful cry, torment, hit, a thunderbolt) of disgracing torment seized them, because of what they used to earn.
41: 46. Whosoever does righteous good deed it is for (the benefit of) his own self, and whosoever does evil, it is against his own self, and your Lord is not at all unjust to (His) slaves.
43: 54. Thus he [Fir'aun (Pharaoh)] befooled and misled his people, and they obeyed him. Verily, they were ever a people who were Fâsiqûn (rebellious, disobedient to Allah).
55. So when they angered Us, We punished them, and drowned them all.
45: 22. And Allah has created the heavens and the earth with truth, in order that each person may be recompensed what he has earned, and they will not be wronged.
50: 29. The Sentence that comes from me cannot be changed, and I am not unjust (to the least) to the slaves."
51: 44. But they insolently defied the Command of their Lord, so the Sâ'iqah overtook them while they were looking.
52: 16. Taste you therein its heat, and whether you are patient of it or impatient of it, it is all the same. You are only being requited for what you used to do.
59: 4. That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW). And whosoever opposes Allah, then verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.
65: 8. And many a town (population) revolted against the Command of its Lord and His Messengers, and We called it to a severe account (i.e. torment in this worldly life), and shall punish it with a horrible torment (in Hell, in the Hereafter).
9. So it tasted the evil result of its disbelief, and the consequence of its disbelief was loss (destruction in this life and an eternal punishment in the Hereafter).
69:10. And they disobeyed their Lord's Messenger, so He punished them with a strong punishment.
71:1 to 25
73: 16. But Fir'aun (Pharaoh) disobeyed the Messenger [Mûsa (Moses)], so We seized him with a severe punishment.
79: 17. Go to Fir'aun (Pharaoh), verily, he has transgressed all bounds (in crimes, sins, polytheism, disbelief, etc.).
18. And say to him: "Would you purify yourself (from the sin of disbelief by becoming a believer)",
19. And that I guide you to your Lord, so you should fear Him?
20. Then [Mûsa (Moses)] showed him the great sign (miracles).
21. But [Fir'aun (Pharaoh)] belied and disobeyed;
22. Then he turned his back, striving hard (against Allah).
25. So Allah, seized him with punishment for his last [i.e. his saying: "I am your lord, most high") (see Verse 79:24)] and first [(i.e. his saying, "O chiefs! I know not that you have a god other than I" (see Verse 28:38)] transgression.
26. Verily, in this is an instructive admonition for whosoever fears Allah.
89: 11. Who did transgress beyond bounds in the lands (in the disobedience of Allah).
12. And made therein much mischief.
13. So your Lord poured on them different kinds of severe torment.
98: 1. Those who disbelieve from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and among Al-Mushrikûn, were not going to leave (their disbelief) until there came to them clear evidence.
2. A Messenger (Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from Allah, reciting (the Qur'ân) purified pages [purified from Al-Bâtil (falsehood, etc.)].
3. Containing correct and straight laws from Allah.
4: 111. And whoever earns sin, he earns it only against himself. And Allâh is Ever All¬Knowing, All¬Wise.
Dawud :: Book 24 : Hadith 3566,68,75,84,92,93,94,21,27,28,3343,77 ,96
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 89 :: Hadith 320
Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 82 :: Hadith 798
Bukhari :: Book 3 :: Volume 34 :: Hadith 418

Allha never punish wrong people [without the awareness of their sin]:

6: 131. This is because your Lord would not destroy the (populations of) towns for their wrong¬doing (i.e. associating others in worship along with Allâh) while their people were unaware (so the Messengers were sent).
8: 51. "This is because of that which your hands had forwarded. And verily, Allâh is not unjust to His slaves."
10: 54. And if every person who had wronged (by disbelieving in Allâh and by worshipping others besides Allâh), possessed all that is on earth, and sought to ransom himself therewith (it will not be accepted), and they would feel in their hearts regret when they see the torment, and they will be judged with justice, and no wrong will be done unto them.
15: 4. And never did We destroy a township but there was a known decree for it.
35: 45. And if Allâh were to punish men for that which they earned, He would not leave a moving (living) creature on the surface of the earth, but He gives them respite to an appointed term, and when their term comes, then verily, Allâh is Ever All¬Seer of His slaves.
Allah like/advice to people doing good virtue:
39: 53. Say: "O 'Ibâdî (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allâh, verily Allâh forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
54. "And turn in repentance and in obedience with true Faith (Islâmic Monotheism) to your Lord and submit to Him, (in Islâm), before the torment comes upon you, then you will not be helped.
55. "And follow the best of that which is sent down to you from your Lord (i.e. this Qur'ân, do what it orders you to do and keep away from what it forbids), before the torment comes on you suddenly while you perceive not!"
57: 21. Race one with another in hastening towards Forgiveness from your Lord (Allâh), and towards Paradise, the width whereof is as the width of heaven and earth, prepared for those who believe in Allâh and His Messengers. That is the Grace of Allâh which He bestows on whom He pleases. And Allâh is the Owner of Great Bounty.
64:11………..whosoever believes in Allâh, He guides his heart [to the true Faith with certainty, i.e. what has befallen him was already written for him by Allâh from the Qadar (Divine Preordainments)], and Allâh is the All-Knower of everything.
64: 16. So keep your duty to Allâh and fear Him as much as you can; listen and obey; and spend in charity, that is better for yourselves. And whosoever is saved from his own covetousness, then they are the successful ones.
66: 6. O you who believe! Ward off from yourselves and your families a Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, over which are (appointed) angels stern (and) severe, who disobey not, (from executing) the Commands they receive from Allâh, but do that which they are commanded.
76: 29. Verily! This (Verses of the Qur'ân) is an admonition, so whosoever wills, let him take a Path to his Lord (Allâh).
92: 5. As for him who gives (in charity) and keeps his duty to Allâh and fears Him,
6. And believes in Al-Husna(truth).
7. We will make smooth for him the path of ease (goodness).
92: 12. Truly! Ours it is (to give) guidance,
13. And truly, unto Us (belong) the last (Hereafter) and the first (this world).
14. Therefore I have warned you of a Fire blazing fiercely (Hell);
15. None shall enter it save the most wretched,
11: 112. So stand (ask Allah to make) you (Muhammad SAW) firm and straight (on the religion of Islâmic Monotheism) as you are commanded and those (your companions) who turn in repentance (unto Allah) with you, and transgress not (Allah’s legal limits). Verily, He is All-Seer of what you do.
113. And incline not toward those who do wrong, lest the Fire should touch you, and you have no protectors other than Allah, nor you would then be helped.
Muslim :: Book 1 : Hadith 367
" There is no god but Allah" and had in his heart virtue of the weight of a barley grain would come out of the Fire.
Muslim :: Book 1 : Hadith 355
He would then say: See, he whom you find having as much faith in his heart as a grain of mustard, bring him out.
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 93 :: Hadith 502
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Allah says: 'I am just as My slave thinks I am, (i.e. I am able to do for him what he thinks I can do for him) and I am with him if He remembers Me. If he remembers Me in himself, I too, remember him in Myself; and if he remembers Me in a group of people, I remember him in a group that is better than they; and if he comes one span nearer to Me, I go one cubit nearer to him; and if he comes one cubit nearer to Me, I go a distance of two outstretched arms nearer to him; and if he comes to Me walking, I go to him running.' "

Allha mercy more than anger:

Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 93 :: Hadith 501
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 93 :: Hadith 643
Narrated Abu Huraira:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "Before Allah created the creations, He wrote a Book (wherein He has written): My Mercy has preceded my Anger." and that (Book) is written with Him over the Throne
Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 54 :: Hadith 416
Muslim :: Book 37 : Hadith 6627,6628,6629,6630,6631,6632,6634,6635

Allha mercy/promise of Allah

28: 13. So did We restore him to his mother, that she might be delighted, and that she might not grieve, and that she might know that the Promise of Allâh is true. But most of them know not.
30: 6. (It is) a Promise of Allâh (i.e. Allâh will give victory to the Romans against the Persians), and Allâh fails not in His Promise, but most of men know not.
35: 45. And if Allâh were to punish men for that which they earned, He would not leave a moving (living) creature on the surface of the earth, but He gives them respite to an appointed term, and when their term comes, then verily, Allâh is Ever All¬Seer of His slaves.
42: 19. Allâh is very Gracious and Kind to His slaves. He gives provisions to whom He wills. And He is the All-Strong, the All-Mighty.
57:9. It is He Who sends down manifest Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) to His slave (Muhammad SAW) that He may bring you out from darkness into light. And verily, Allâh is to you full of kindness, Most Merciful.
85: 14. And He is Oft-Forgiving, full of love (towards the pious who are real true believers of Islâmic Monotheism),
Muslim :: Book 37 : Hadith 6631
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There are one hundred (parts of) mercy for Allah and He has sent down out of these one part of mercy upon the jinn and human beings and the insects and it is because of this (one part) that they love one another, show kindness to one another and even the beast treats its young one with affection, and Allah has reserved ninetynine parts of mercy with which He would treat His servants on the Day of Resurrection.

Allha mercy greater than his anger:
27:73. "Verily, your Lord is full of Grace for mankind, yet most of them do not give thanks."
35: 45. And if Allâh were to punish men for that which they earned, He would not leave a moving (living) creature on the surface of the earth, but He gives them respite to an appointed term, and when their term comes, then verily, Allâh is Ever All¬Seer of His slaves.
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 93 :: Hadith 501,643
Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 76 :: Hadith 476
Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 73 :: Hadith 28 ,29

Offline The Comforter

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2014, 04:50:11 PM »
personally i've never found sense in the Trinity doctrine and neither do many Christians, how exactly does God become his own Son and Father at the same time? and if you believe he is ONE God then why in the World do you even need the Trinity for that? Judaism and Islam did really fine without the Trinity, this doctrine only arises doubts on weather Christianity should be included in the " Monotheism Team "  or exiled as a Polytheist Religion.

Offline theydontreadthebible

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2015, 05:02:15 PM »
Why don't we believe in trinity?

easy, for one doesn't even need to open teh quran..

deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

1 timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Numbers 23:19
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Clearly god is no man, and jesus is a man.

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Son of man is lower in degree than the Holy spirit, which is lower in degree than God.

How can these all be 1 when they are clearly not EQUAL?


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