Answering Christianity Research Center

I have conclusively proved that the claim of a miracle made by brother Osama is false and should be removed from his posted claims.

I have no independent means to verify your latest asserted set of relationships even exits, and I have no intention of counting verses in the Qur'an myself.

To work on your latest set of "miraculous" criteria I would need in text form a summary of all the data cited, preferably in .xls or .csv form.  If you could clearly and concisely list in text form all the relations of all the components you wish to engineer into your "miracle" I can work on it over time.

My assertion stands, that there are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an, and the asserted numerological associations are within the capability of 7th century man to engineer into the texts.

Oh, but I did another solution!  This time I duplicated the exact numbers of the so called golden ratio supposedly created in code by Allah.  And I can assure you, I am not Allah, yet I produced these numbers.  There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an

Chapter	Verses	Even	Odd	Rpt	Non-Rpt
1	16		17		17
2	7		9	9
3	16		19		19
4	5		9	9
5	20		25		25
6	9		15		15
7	28		35		35
8	5		13		13
9	20		29		29
10	1962	1972		1972
11	1961	1972		1972
12	1960	1972		1972
13	1959	1972		1972
14	1104	1118			1118
15	1177	1192			1192
16	1090	1106			1106
17	1127	1144			1144
18	154	172			172
Sum	Sum	Sum	Sum	Sum	Sum
171	12620	12620	171	7906	4885

Brother Dawud,
"no it does not, science is empirical , wich means what you see and test that is science, you cant test and do experiment for million of years to prove evolution, so it stay just a theory"

Forensic science is just that, a science.  Actually, all science is done in the past, since light takes a finite time to reach our eyes.  That may seem trivial, but in modern science that fact is actually very important to understanding certain experimental results.

"In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"—part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus creationists can (and do) argue: evolution is "only" a theory", ...

"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts." ...
...from the classic piece by Gould
Evolution as Fact and Theory
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html

If it were impossible to make scientific judgements based on study of past events we could never convict a criminal based on forensic evidence, nor could we do historical research, archeology, or astronomy.  The fact of evolution is seen in scientific study of the past and modern laboratory experiments in chemistry and biology.

I invite you to study the definitions of "scientific fact" and "scientific theory". 

Peace bro

Brother Dawud,
I believe I may have applied a different numerological algorithm than the one you specified!

No matter, I solved it with another algorithm, the below entry matches my most recent reading of your algorithm.  That is one of the fascinating things about iterative numerical methods.  One may curve fit using a wide variety of functions and arrive at a solution to the specified degree of accuracy, in this case 3 decimal places.  The solution converges on a different set of coefficients, but is just as valid as any other solution.

Again please note, 1618/1000 = 1.618, an exact representation of the approximation "everybody" uses.

Chapter	Verses	Even	Odd	Rpt	Non-Rpt
1	22		23		23
2	7		9	9
3	22		25		25
4	5		9	9
5	26		31		31
6	9		15		15
7	28		35		35
8	5		13		13
9	20		29		29
10	11		21		21
11	389	400		400
12	388	400		400
13	387	400		400
14	386	400		400
15	107	122			122
16	104	120			120
17	177	194			194
18	90	108			108
19	127	146			146
20	98	118			118
Sum	Sum	Sum	Sum	Sum	Sum
210	2408	2408	210	1618	1000

If you find any errors in my calculations please me know, after all, the ancient men who embedded these numerological arrangements had decades to do so and I just started a couple days ago!

Peace Bro

Brother Ahmad,
"Commenters should refrain from using indecent language for "StardustyPsyche".

I appreciate your kind words.  I have heard much worse then those of Mr. Habbal    It will take a great deal more than a few sporadic words of insult and false assumption on a blog to bother me at all.

But, I suspect you are only partly expressing this out of concern for me.  I think it likely your primary goal is to maintain your own integrity and the integrity of a community you feel a part of.  Fair enough.

You have corrected my apparently false conclusion that you agree there are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an. 

Do you have any specific items you assert are scientific miracles in the Qur'an?  I don't know you very much at all, but at this point I have the impression there is somewhat of a disconnect between your feeling that the Qur'an has scientific miracles, yet I have not noticed a specific assertion of any from you.

Please correct me if I am wrong in your view.

Brother Dawud,
So you and I agree that brother Osama’s assertion that
sum of chapters, = sum of odd
sum of verses, = sum of evens
constitutes a miracle is false.

We agree that it is trivial for a human being to construct such an arrangement, which disqualifies Osama’s published rationale for a “scientific miracle”.

Now, you have added 2 criteria that you claim make this arrangement a true miracle
1.   That the number of even sums equals the odd sums
2.   That the ratio as described above is the golden ratio, which is necessarily a miracle.

Sorry, brother Dawud, you are as mistaken as Osama in your assertion of the necessity of a miracle to explain these items.

First, getting the even sums to match the odd sums is trivial.  There is no upper bound on the number of such solutions.  I could list them for you as fast as I can write.  But I will give you just one

Ch      Vs      Ev      Odd
1      23      24      
2      7             9
3      47      50      
4      7             11
5      27      32      
6      5             11
7      2             9
8      66      74      
9      6             15
10      2      12      
                     
Sum      Sum      Sum      Sum
55      192      192      55


As for your second assertion it is false on several counts.

First, you have falsely stated the golden ratio.  The golden ratio does not equal 7905/4885.  The golden ratio equals  (1 + sqrt(5))/2.
1.6182190378710337768… = 7905/4885
1.6180339887498948482...  = (1 + sqrt(5))/2
Surly the all knowing creator of the universe who knows every subatomic detail of the entire universe would know these numbers are not equal!

Your assertion is also false because it is easily explained by reverse cherry picking.  If the ratio had turned out to be
2.718
you may as well have said “ah ha!!!  The base of natural logarithms!!!”
And why 7905/4885?  Why not 4885/7905?  Your choice is arbitrary and merely a reverse engineered cherry picking.
There are endless ratios and numbers in nature and mathematics.  There are endless ways to count chapters and verses and letters in the Qur’an.  Eventually you can find a match to 3 decimal places.  No miracle needed.

Sorry brothers Dawud and Osama, your arguments for the necessity of a miracle in this case are nonsense, and the demonstration of their falsehood is trivial.

Peace to you both

Mr. Habal,
I see clearly that you are prone to make assumptions when you do not have evidence.

Actually, the books of Moses contain even more instructions to wretched actions than the Qur'an.  Unfortunately for the indigenous people of what we now call Palestine or Israel those instructions were genocide against them.  Fortunately for the rest of the world, the explicit incitement to murder made by Moses was limited to that relatively small geographical area.

Your post is little more than a disjointed rant, filled with anger and accusations based on assumptions for which you have no evidence beyond what you can "smell" through your computer.

The "miracle" I have thoroughly debunked is that life is made from water.

You wish to bring up that the Qur'an also says that man was made from mud.  That is also scientifically false.  Science tells us that human beings evolved from lower primates, not mud.

You seek to discount the fact and theory of evolution by citing a tiny percentage of individuals in the field who have in fact used fraud to further their own agenda, likely fame and wealth.  That is one of the great things about science.  It is other scientists who expose false claims through the scientific method.

Indeed, the Qur'an is not a science book and there are no scientific miracles in it.  There are a number of very crude and obvious observations in it that are so apparent to any careful observer that they have some alignment with reality if interpreted in the broadest sense, which in no way qualifies such statements as miracles.

Peace Mr. Habal

Brother Dawud,
No, there is no leech stage to human development.

"what is this then?" you ask.
Answer, a human embryo.

Yes, I realize that at that point in development there is a very crude resemblance between a leech and a human embryo.

This resembles a leech
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5Oh_aR1WQ9Q/U9E5p18kanI/AAAAAAAASOw/6gLuAevyh20/s1600/image_2+-+WM.jpeg

This also resembles a leech
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/bethanyd.jpg

It is a simple observational fact that human beings resemble leeches in their early development. 

All that is needed to observe this fact is a miscarriage.

Miscarriages were, unfortunately, common.

There is no scientific miracle in describing the products of a miscarriage as a leech, or a clot, or a chewed thing.  Those are just crude descriptions of the obvious.

Peace Bro