Are there more "messengers of Allah"?

[mokko]

Since the "epilepsy explanation" of Allah's revelation has not been rejected yet (see my older post), here is an interesting question:

do you accept that Ellen G. White (7th day adventist), whose case looks similar, but in the 19th century, also received her revelation from Allah?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspiration_of_Ellen_White

[Final Overture]

Muhammad is the last prophet.

[mokko]

Muhammad is the last prophet.

arguments?

[Final Overture]

Muhammad is the last prophet.

arguments?

"Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing." (Qur'an 33:40)

[mokko]

Muhammad is the last prophet.

arguments?

"Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing." (Qur'an 33:40)

1. what are the reasons that make you accept Muhammad and reject White, rather than the other way? do you have any?

Consider all the arguments that Muslims usually give to Christians, in order to make them accept Muhammad, and apply them to the case of Ellen White.

2. By the way, your "ijtihad" is very unclear. See also: "And for every Ummah (a community or a nation), there is a Messenger; when their Messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged. (Qur'ân 10:47)"

[QuranSearchCom]

Since the "epilepsy explanation" of Allah's revelation has not been rejected yet (see my older post), here is an interesting question:

do you accept that Ellen G. White (7th day adventist), whose case looks similar, but in the 19th century, also received her revelation from Allah?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspiration_of_Ellen_White

Mr. Mokko,

Ignoring you is not an automatic concede to the validity of your arguments.  It's just that no one here really cares about these old lame and boring arguments that are presented by agnostics and atheists and Islamophobes.  The Glorious Quran is the Divine Miracle of Allah Almighty.  There are ample irrefutable Overwhelming Scientific Notions and Statements in the Holy Quran that I challenge you to refute.  The best you will ever do (because I've debated the likes of you before including the notorious agnostic Denis Giron) is cast doubts about the Noble Verses, or try to say something like "is it possible that it means something else".  The silencer to such lame and superficial arguments is not only in producing ample definitions, quotations from proverbs and sayings that even pre-date Islam, that demonstrate the meaning of the certain Noble Words in the Holy Quran using  encyclopedic Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan Al-Arab and others as I have thoroughly used, but the Numerical Miracles of the Holy Quran further prove the Holy Book's Divine Structure, and how every Word counts and was placed in its specific position for a Divine Reason.  The reader can visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links to begin to study the many Overwhelming Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Quran.  And the list is growing.

To make it abundantly clear to you, Mokko, I certainly believe in the following:

1-  Allah Almighty is the Absolute One and Sovereign LORD and Creator of the Universe.

2-  Prophet Muhammad is Allah Almighty's Messenger and Prophet.

3-  The Glorious Quran is the Divine Book and Word of Allah Almighty.

4-  Islam is the Divine Truth and Faith and Creed and Religion of Allah Almighty that He sent to mankind, and to restore the original Faith, which was called "Islam".

And as always Mokko, please feel free to speak you mind as free as you want, as long as the words are dictionary-approved, and I am sure you're a proper person yourself.  I just want to make it clear that me disagreeing with someone, even strongly, is not a sign or warning for them to be banned.  I don't operate like this.  I go after the arguments, and not the individuals.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[mokko]

It's just that no one here really cares about these old lame and boring arguments that are presented by agnostics and atheists and Islamophobes.  The Glorious Quran is the Divine Miracle of Allah Almighty. (...)

I am not sure that what you affirm is really incompatible with the Geschwind syndrome explanation (moreover, this explanation does not imply that he was "crazy", I insist). It was precisely the point of my post. You did not reply to it, nor anyone else.

My post was fully consistent with your "scientific miracle" project: I just asked if it was possible to re-read Quranic verses in light of scientific discoveries on Geschwind syndrome.

An angry and reactive attitude usually does not help in understanding the subtelties of an argument.

However, I will follow your advice, and look for a community that better suits my values and attitude.

[QuranSearchCom]

My post was fully consistent with your "scientific miracle" project: I just asked if it was possible to re-read Quranic verses in light of scientific discoveries on Geschwind syndrome.

Your post had nothing to do with the Overwhelming Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Quran.  They were about the validity of the Holy Book.  The validity of the Holy Quran, and the proof that It is Divine and the Truth of Allah Almighty is beyond question at this point.  No Geschwind syndrome is applicable to the Divine Revelations of the Holy Quran, and I've given you the proofs that the Holy Quran is not just a book of stories and claims that can not be substantiated.  The Overwhelming Miracles in the Holy Quran testify to Its Divinity.  You rejecting this without any solid proof, and you washing it all aside as under the so-called "Geschwind syndrome" simply has no value in it to any Believing Muslim.  Come and refute the Scientific Miracles of the Holy Quran and then you'll have a point.  If you'd like, we can discuss them one at a time.  So feel free to bring your best one and we'll discuss it.

An angry and reactive attitude usually does not help in understanding the subtelties of an argument.

No anger here.  Just a simple response.

However, I will follow your advice, and look for a community that better suits my values and attitude.

Have it your way.  But I was hoping to discuss with you something about Science in the Glorious Quran than empty charges on the Prophet of Islam, peace be upon him.  Your charges about the Geschwind syndrome are nothing but a theory from the anti-Islamics against the Prophet of Islam.  My argument is, however, is giving you irrefutable facts that testify to the Truth of our Glorious Quran from the Glorious Quran.  If you strongly disagree with this, then I'd like to see your best example about this.  Bring them one at a time, and let us discuss them.  Otherwise, you have nothing but an empty theory my friend, at least to the Believing Muslims.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[mokko]

I do not get the whole point of "re-inventing the wheel" with the Quran.

It would be more interesting if, for example, you could use the Quran to make new scientific discoveries. In science, any inspiration is welcome.

In this matter, Ramanujan did much better: without any training in mathematics, he had divine visions of unknown and precise mathematical formulas (you cannot apply the adjectives "precise" and 'unknown" to your theory), which were latter proved to be correct. His visions are still a source actively used by the math community. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramanujan#Personality_and_spiritual_life

However, it did not lead many people to convert to Ramanujan's religion. What about you? Would you convert to his religion, given its greater "scientific miracles"?

So I am not sure that vague verses that anyone can, a posteriori, twist the way he wants, could get a better treatment.

[QuranSearchCom]

"Imagine that you are on a street with houses marked 1 through n. There is a house in between (x) such that the sum of the house numbers to left of it equals the sum of the house numbers to its right. If n is between 50 and 500, what are n and x?" This is a bivariate problem with multiple solutions. Ramanujan thought about it and gave the answer with a twist: He gave a continued fraction. The unusual part was that it was the solution to the whole class of problems. Mahalanobis was astounded and asked how he did it. "It is simple. The minute I heard the problem, I knew that the answer was a continued fraction. Which continued fraction, I asked myself. Then the answer came to my mind," Ramanujan replied.

This is a quote from the link that you gave.  Mr. Ramanujan might be a mathematical genius, and an expert in Calculus and Differential Equations, and has a great analytical mind, but he is not Messenger of GOD Almighty. 

I don't think you really read with care what I wrote to you, Mokko.  The Glorious Quran's Miracles in Science and Mathematics are what NASA and the Computer Age of today have begun to unveil.  And Allah Almighty made it very clear that He put those Miracles in the Holy Quran as a proof to Its Divinity.

So again, why don't you bring your best argument against the Holy Quran's Scientific Miracles and see if our Holy Book is Miraculous or not?

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[mokko]

This is a quote from the link that you gave.  Mr. Ramanujan might be a mathematical genius, and an expert in Calculus and Differential Equations, and has a great analytical mind, but he is not Messenger of GOD Almighty. 

I understand you to mean that Ramanujan was too smart to be trusted as receiving "external" revelation. Ramanujan should have been intelligent enough to produce his revelation "internally". Nice compliment for Muhammad's intelligence (i do not share this view).

 

I don't think you really read with care what I wrote to you, Mokko.  The Glorious Quran's Miracles in Science and Mathematics are what NASA and the Computer Age of today have begun to unveil.  And Allah Almighty made it very clear that He put those Miracles in the Holy Quran as a proof to Its Divinity.

So again, why don't you bring your best argument against the Holy Quran's Scientific Miracles and see if our Holy Book is Miraculous or not?

My second best argument is that proofs are built on precision and clarity. If science did not pay attention to precison, it would split into sects, like some religions. I am sorry to say that your "miracles" are not precise enough to be useful for ordinary people. Most science is made by ordinary people, not geniuses, and these people need straightforward proofs, step-by-step arguments, like children. Otherwise, they do not understand. They are too dumb to read between the lines accurately.



If you can find the receipe of a drug against cancer in the Holy Book, it would be nice to share it. Ibn Kathir did not. This proof is not sufficient for you?

My best argument is: if you seriously believe in your theory, apply it yourself: use Allah's knowledge to solve hard scientific problems (you have plenty of choice), unveil them before the Nasa does, and believe me, many people will follow your method, as there is a lot of money at stake.



Example: here: http://www.answering-christianity.com/speed_of_light_in_quran.htm you say that the speed of light can be determined from the verse: [Quran 32.5] "(Allah) Rules the cosmic [btw, do we find the word "cosmic" in the arabic version?] affair from the heavens to the Earth. Then this affair travels to Him a distance in one day, at a measure of one thousand years of what you count."

I honestly do not see how this verse could have anything to do with the speed of light. But maybe you have better ijtihad skills than me, and in this case, you can help the world:  can you tell us how to predict the three-dimensional structure of a protein from its amino acid sequence?
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_structure_prediction

Do not wait until someone else solve this problem, in order to tell us which verse to read, and how to interpret it. Millions of lives are at stake (cancer, viruses...), it is an emergency.


Up to now, the most famous application of this kind of method is Ibn Baz's famous proof, in 1969, that the earth was flat. He carefully read hadith and Quran, and did not care about "non-Islamic" information. In short, Ibn Baz conducted what doctors call a "blind experiment" (!).

It is enough to show that this "knowledge" does not produce interesting results. Maybe tomorrow, with a better method of ijtihad (out of reach with today's knowledge), some Muslims will do better. After all, it is not impossible: science also needs confidence and inspiration.

[mokko]

I do not see how the "scientific miracles" of your website are any different from those of Virgil’s Georgics’:

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/NATVRAE_MIRABILIS_ORIGINISQVE_DIVINAE_GEORGICAE_VERGILII

However, I would certainly agree with your "under-message": faith and science should not be opposed, Muslims should not abandon Islam in order to become good scientists, quite the contrary, they can find strength inside their faith, Muslims have the potential to do better than the Nasa....but unfortunately, the path you've taken to exemplify those claims is not correct.

I shall say that your work is counter-productive, in order to attract reasonable people to find some truth in the Quran.

But I am afraid that we have to accept that we do not live in the same mental world, and that trying to establish channels of communication between the two is a waste of time.

[Final Overture]

Muhammad is the last prophet.

arguments?

"Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing." (Qur'an 33:40)

1. what are the reasons that make you accept Muhammad and reject White, rather than the other way? do you have any?

Consider all the arguments that Muslims usually give to Christians, in order to make them accept Muhammad, and apply them to the case of Ellen White.

2. By the way, your "ijtihad" is very unclear. See also: "And for every Ummah (a community or a nation), there is a Messenger; when their Messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged. (Qur'ân 10:47)"

1. Muhammad wasn't just a mere man, he was a descendant of Abraham.
2. He preached the monotheism, the belief in One God.
3. «During the 23-year period of his prophethood, he changed the entire Arabian Peninsula from paganism to worship of the one true God, from tribal warfare to national unity, from anarchy to disciplined living, from barbarism to the highest standard of moral excellence. At the time of his death most inhabitants of Arabia and the southern regions of Iraq and Palestine had voluntarily embraced Islam. To posterity he left a creed of pure monotheism that included comprehensive legislation based on a balanced system of moral values.» (Clear your doubts about Islam, Sahih International)
4. After the start of his Prophethood, a lot of people started believing in One God and stopped worshipping idols.

[mokko]

1. Muhammad wasn't just a mere man, he was a descendant of Abraham.

so what? Maybe Ellen White was also a descendant of Abraham, who knows.

2. He preached the monotheism, the belief in One God.

Ellen White too.

3. «During the 23-year period of his prophethood, he changed the entire Arabian Peninsula from paganism to worship of the one true God, from tribal warfare to national unity, from anarchy to disciplined living, from barbarism to the highest standard of moral excellence. At the time of his death most inhabitants of Arabia and the southern regions of Iraq and Palestine had voluntarily embraced Islam. To posterity he left a creed of pure monotheism that included comprehensive legislation based on a balanced system of moral values.» (Clear your doubts about Islam, Sahih International)
4. After the start of his Prophethood, a lot of people started believing in One God and stopped worshipping idols.

Ellen White did similar things in America, and maybe even some better things.

[Final Overture]

so what? Maybe Ellen White was also a descendant of Abraham, who knows.

Prove.

Ellen White too.

Ellen White did similar things in America, and maybe even some better things.

Did Ellen White live among pagans? And how does it come that there are so many atheists in America? Did Ellen White change whole America into worshipping God alone?

2. By the way, your "ijtihad" is very unclear. See also: "And for every Ummah (a community or a nation), there is a Messenger; when their Messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged. (Qur'ân 10:47)"

Muhammad is sent for the whole mankind.


Remember her false prophecies? Remember Harold Camping?