Author Topic: Trinity  (Read 66401 times)

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Offline JesusisGod

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Trinity
« on: July 08, 2014, 12:40:37 AM »
One doesn't need to appeal to the Bible to see that the trinity is taught. In nature we see the teaching in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. We know that this material universe consists of three parts time space and matter but it is all the same universe. If we break these three apart we see that time again is separated into three but it is all time past present and future. Space we live in a three dimensional universe length width and height. Matter also exists in three solid liquid and gas. Nevertheless I believe the biggest and most easily recognizable to all of humanity is the family a family consists of children a mother and a father. Before any one gets any ideas this concept is explained in the bible because all of the believers in Christ as God and savior are adopted into Gods family as Children. As a person without any revelation from God |I could make an argument that I would be with God forever if only I was His son because a great being like |God must forgive his children all that they do as an earthly father forgives his children. The question is who can connect with me a perfect God to be His son The answer would be a perfect son Jesus.   

Offline submit

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2014, 11:19:45 AM »
^Problem with believing in God appearing as son of God on earth and holy spirit being part of 'triune oneness' was never taught in 7 Laws by gentile prophet Noah nor by 10 Laws Israeltie prophets.

Only the Christian Romans believe in such Triune-Oneness God. Something really new and NEVER BEEN heard before. Read Deuteronomy 13 where God reminds the Israelites about the coming of new/unheard God that certainly refer to Triune Oneness God. Deut 13 can not be referring to idol God as idol worshiping is not new and have been heard before during the time of prophet Abraham (as).

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2014, 12:17:15 AM »
The reason the statement is worded in the way that it is, is to get people to think of God outside of the text they have received. God is certainly greater than the Bible and He is greater than the Quran. These books are what people study to get a further understanding of who God is. I would like the people reading the question to consider the information present, not what has been written in books. God has left a testimony of himself in what He has created, so that the entire world is without an excuse before Him on judgement day. I could get into the Hebrew words used for God in the old testament, but I think my point has yet to be answered. Why does the universe we exist in have so many parts pointing back to a three in one concept its not foreign or new Time space matter and families have existed in threes from the beginning. There is a natural precedence for this thought. I believe God is three in one and this belief extends beyond what I'm taught in a book. What I have read in the Bible is confirmed by what I see in reality, so I accept it as true. Nevertheless, not all men have the witness of scripture, so they are taught by what has been made. God is making Himself known to humanity not just in words but through What He has made. Why do you believe God is an absolutely one solitary person, and how can he relate to us if He is again He is spirit we are not He is infinite we are not he is perfect we are not he is all powerful we are weak If he cannot relate to us than how can he judge the world? If He is a solitary being then why does the creation speak to us so clearly in threes?   

Offline submit

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2014, 04:10:37 AM »
well in Islam, you can not imagine about God using using the concept of His creations and try to relate to it about the existence/nature/attributes of God.
Almighty God be like a family? Almighty God like mixture of space,time,matter..? Almighty God like spirit? Almighty God like flesh? All of those are things created by God.

That is why in Islam , one need to strive hard fulfilling what was ordained by God. to be righteous so that the reward in the afterlife is to meet God the creator.



Offline JesusisGod

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2014, 08:30:46 PM »
God transcends His creation. I'm not saying that space time and matter are God, but when God created these things He left an imprint of Himself. The universe could not exist in the balance it does today if an Omniscient mind had not created it, so god's that make mistakes are automatically ruled out as are gods who are less than sovereign because their wills could be overruled. I'm saying that in the creation of time space matter and the family God is teaching men, not in words but as only a Creator can through what He has made, that He exists in three persons God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit.

As for your second comment, if Islam is the fulfilling of what God has ordained in order to achieve the after life then were all going to hell no one can be as perfect as God even to the extent that we follow rules we will fail. For example, this month is ramadan and I can almost guarantee some one you know has broken the fast either on accident or on purpose. Have you ever failed to fast in this month? I fasted yesterday so as to not offend one of my Muslim friends and its no walk in the park.

Offline submit

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2014, 06:36:39 AM »
That is why we have Judgement Day, if good deeds surpassed sins. You will be safe.

There is no imprint left by God in subjects like space, time, matter nor families, as those creations are not even equal to each other. Thus one can not use it to relate to thee entities in equality being in oneness. Hope it make sense to you?

One simple way to check about the belief of Romans Christians which is obviously in the wrong is by checking the message brought by past prophets. Even before the time of Israelites, prophet Noah never preach about God having equals, or triune in nature. The Israelites too do not preach about triune or believe Holy Spirit being God.

Only the Romans Christians who misinterpret the Israelite writings belief in such falsehood.

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2014, 01:47:55 AM »
There are numerous things wrong with your judgement day theory. Do not deceive yourself the amount of sins we commit will always out weigh our good. The most devout Muslim I know today did not fast during your holy month. How rich is God in His wisdom to allow this to occur in my life at the proper time. Our good actions are utterly disgusting for God because they are not perfect in nature, yet He is. He cannot and will not accept us based on our actions, which we may see as good, because in His eyes they are putrid and mired in sin, worse than a pig. We are worse than swine before a holy and perfect God, He cannot accept us based on what we do. I have met judges more righteous than the god you portray. If I do him some favors,  he will let me go for all the terrible things I have done to him and others (and we all sin against God and our fellow men). Will God accept bribes from men. Who can give anything to God If He is the giver of all good things and has no need of anything He doesn't need your obedience, and he will not accept the few time you may think you obeyed as payment for the life time of sin you lived. We owe only obedience to the law as it has authority over us. In america you don't win awards or praise for obeying the law only condemnation for breaking it. How much before God do we owe perfect obedience and fail every hour of the day. We are all condemned by our sin, or will God not punish the guilty for their crimes? Why, because we are "obedient" sometimes? Is God corrupt that He would pervert justice? I tell you one thing I would rather be in hell for all eternity than to be with a god who is unjust. Before you say he forgives he is all forgiving then I tell you two things forgiveness without punishment in a court of law is a breach of justice and payment received for forgiveness is no forgiveness at all. The forgiveness of God by nature must be greater than men, and I know many parents who forgive their children without payment of obedience. If their is some cosmic scale we are weighed on to determine our life in heaven then surely Gods standards are perfection His perfection demands perfection not human goodness, but perfection from his creation or is the heaven you believe in less than perfect perhaps your god is less then perfect. Remember Adam was kicked out of paradise and the entire world was cursed as the result of one sin How much greater punishment do we deserve who live in sin? An eternity in hell is what all men deserve. By my stern words i mean to shock you into studying harder. I don't mean to shame you I'm just as guilty before God as all men I deserve hell for my sins against a holy God, but good deeds are not the answer to salvation. Salvation is found only in God. (You know that I mean Jesus Christ by my username but God The Father God The Son and God The holy Spirit all saved me). I don't ask you to read the bible, although that would be the best thing for You because it speaks about the true God who in the old testament is called Gods (the Hebrew word Elohim) and in the new testament is revealed as Father Son and Spirit, but to examine what it is you believe.  Because your careless words are blaspheming God. I am willing to show you through your own books, but my fear is that you will come to see God as some one who only resides in books and the words of men. What I would do is try praying to God the Father through Jesus or even to Jesus Himself for Guidance. I know how crazy and bad that sounds to you, but I would not have come to know my Heavenly Father but Through my perfect God and Savior Jesus Christ.

You say there is no imprint left by God in his creation yet if that were true men could never find God for we would not have the capacity to do so because we wouldn't be cognizant of our own existence let alone that of God's. We are made in the image of God are we not? We are self-aware, creative, and have knowledge of good, and in the beginning only did good ( i'm talking about Adam). If I can't see God in what He has made then I will never find him in the words or writings of a man. For what existed first The creation or the words of men. If God has not made things so that we would find Him then He cannot judge the world because where there is no law there is no condemnation. He really can't find fault with men who say their is no God if they were not constantly being bombarded with His existence in everything He has made. If your god didn't make things in this world so that we would find him then my God is greater because He did, and by the definition of God only one is true and the greater must be God. I don't think you put to much thought into what you wrote because you don't even use verses in your posts. Do you believe in the Quran? If so show me a verse in the Quran that says their is no imprint of God in what He has made. Space, time, matter, and families are not equal to one another but time is divided into three equal parts past, present, and future. Is the future greater in quality or quantity then the past or present no they are all equally divided into seconds minutes hours days. And they are all considered time. As a whole if one talks about all time then they must refer to both the future and the past not just the present. So the same with God if I address God as a whole then I talk to all of them. Different persons One God. Space is the same thing length, width, depth they are all space measured the same way. if you only see one then you see in one dimension which confuses your perception of what is really there. Which is why you come to wrong conclusions about God. Your focused so much on only one aspect and don't take every thing into account as seen in your concept of a judgement day you Seemed to forget God has to punish sin and how His stature as the perfect creator demands perfection. I'm telling You that in the being, we as American Christians call God ( who all the prophets called Gods), there exists three persons The one most people have no problem seeing the Father The Son, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. And Matter H2O is expressed in three different ways ice water and steam which each perform separate functions yet it is the same chemical compound. In the same way, Jesus is the one that died for our sins God the Father punished Him and The Holy Spirit empowered Him to Live the perfect life so that He could be the sacrifice for our sins. They are all the same nature perfect all powerful all knowing infinite etc. but They do different thing all in perfect unison as  exemplified above.
 
As for Your last point I've mentioned many times the Hebrew word Elohim which is translated as God but in Hebrew it means Gods im being the masculine plural ending for a noun. I'm aware of many people who will say that even in the quran we is a form of respect for God, but in either case an all intelligent Being would not in His revelation, especially His First revelation to man use a word that would be 1 not true and 2 so confusing to the one reading his words. From genesis to revelation God exists in three persons. Search Gods' words they will reveal a being who is three in one. 

Offline submit

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2014, 08:27:37 PM »

Offline The Comforter

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2014, 08:36:07 PM »
Elohim is a plural of majesty, even Jews say it.

and, why don't you read the bible in the language it was revealed in?

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2014, 02:38:19 AM »
Don't deceive Your self Why would an all intelligent being reveal himself to men in such a half hazard way it's idiotic. Is it not at all possible that when God YHWH called Himself Gods He meant Gods. I dont need a guru to tell me what the Bible says |God clearly calls himself |Gods many times whether its elohim or in deuteronomy When it says the YHWH our Gods are echad a composite oneness If it was just the plural of majesty, which did not even exist back when the Bible was first written, then Why does God call himself a composite unity(echad) rather than an absolute oneness (yachid). Muslims and Jews are stubborn and don't want to believe Jesus or The Spirit are God so they believe whatever they want. Plural of majesty didn't exist back then so Why would God do it. If it is plural of majesty then God would always revere Himself and so would writers, messengers of God, yet the Bible also calls God singular all be it far less times. Is God disrespecting Him self when He is referred as singular, which He can't do  , or is He trying to mislead those to whom He is talking by referring to Himself as something He is not in other words lying also which He cannot do. An all intelligent being wouldn't refer to Himself in plural form When He is talking to Jews in 1,500 b.c. so that he can appease people in European countries who started the plural majesty thing in maybe 1000 a.d. it is illogical and would mislead many people over the years. I might take you seriously if The plural majesty thing was around when the Bible was written, but it is not in the bible and there are no historical references of it by any of the kings or gods of that time. The records of kings like pharaoh or of babylon and their stories of gods don't have it. If he was merely doing it to revere Himself why didn't any prophet tell us that and Why does God not tell us that He calls Himself God's as a form of respect? Or I could take you seriously if God was always referred to as elohim because God and His prophets will always respect God, but God is also referred to as singular, Eloah, which would be disrespectful. Something that neither |God or His prophets would do. Stop being stubborn and read the bible regularly God is plural. My main point was to show you outside of the Bible that He was more than one if You want to go to the bible I am more than Happy to do it God straight up tells us They are Gods, more than one, if you don't want to believe that is on you. |But it is both in creation in the bible and in the quran where God calls himself more than one you have no excuse not to believe. If it was not true then why does the creation constantly remind us that He is more than one. Also why would god tell us He is more than one? |I am not going to trust Jews or any man who are giving their interpretation of the Bible and who are known to lie and misunderstand God. over |YHWH| Gods themselves who cannot lie.

I do study the bible in it's original language when it is difficult to understand, but i don't read it all the time in greek or hebrew because I don't speak that language. I have a very limited understanding of these languages. I have read many different translations and |God The holy Spirit helps me see when it is a good translation or not I| know God and I can tell when a verse in the bible is translated well or not. God helps me see the bad or iffy verses then I look them up and sure enough the verses are translated wrong. |This happens all the time. What you happen to forget is that God gives understanding not the language or even the scriptures. If you want I can show you where even your own prophet says that about The Spirit, just as I claimed, gives understanding. But I have a feeling that you don't want to know because if You can't even believe God how will you believe His prophets.

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2014, 04:21:25 AM »
First point |Hell is eternal this is an excerpt of Is hell eternal.  The problem with Allah allowing Someone into heaven after a certain amount of punishment in hell is that it takes away God's hatred of sin. If He doesn't punish sin eternally then He doesn't hate sin. This is not a case I've heard any Muslim make most Muslims I meet agree that sin is a problem between humanity and God. As far as Allah being the most merciful this is not the case with a half punishment in hell because the ones who are supposed to receive mercy are being punished. Mercy is not receiving what you deserve for wronging somebody. In this case they do receive punishment so Allah is not being merciful towards them. At least not the most merciful because certainly there are even some humans who have forgiven someone completely and without cause for retribution. If God is the greatest possible being in existence then He can't forgive half way. God is obligated by His great nature to forgive completely when He chooses to forgive.  I see the approach the man is taking in arguing for this position but I believe it perverts Gods holy character to say He will allow some one into heaven after punishment. What God does he does infinitely if He love's someone he will love them infinitely if He rejects someone he will do so infinitely if He forgives someone He will do so infinitely. What this teaching suggests is that people make it to heaven on different merits either because they were forgiven or because they finished with the punishment Allah had for them in which case he is not the most merciful but merely fulfilling justice in punishing someone for their sins that is if Allah's punishment is not eternal. Which I believe the quran teaches that it is and if it is he is not being just in his punishment to allow some into heaven after punishment. The biggest problem with Muslims concept of God is their idea of forgiveness. How can God be a just judge if He is also forgiving/merciful. How does any one make it to heaven if we have all transgressed God's laws either by going against our God given conscious or against the laws written in holy books. God by his very just and holy (perfect) nature has to judge and reject us for our imperfections because if He accepts any one without a punishment then He is not just. If He is not just how can He judge? I think the real question here is How can God forgive.

second point You don't believe Salvation is found in God you are trying to save yourself by having your good deeds out weigh your sins I am trusting God to save me I trust that God will forgive me Because He says He will if I believe Jesus is God and He Died and |Rose again to take me to Heaven. I am Trusting Jesus God the Son to take me to Heaven, Not my Good deeds. Isaiah 53 speaks of Jesus being killed for our sins. It speaks of Jesus justifying transgressors the prophets say that YHWH will justify sinners. If God gives salvation and Isaiah says salvation is because of the messiah then Jesus is YHWH or God this is the verse that says that  Isaiah 45:25 Isaiah also says The messiah did not lie all men lie only God cannot lie. You get all the info from muslim sites but All the apostles of Jesus call him God because that is what Jesus taught early church documents also confirm |Jesus was worshiped as God as do historians of Jesus' time saying  we |Christians are teachers of a strange deity and we sing to Jesus as one would a |God. Its not a new thing even before Jesus was born it was said they would call him emmanual God is with us Jesus means YHWH save and |He called Himself the Savior Jesus Said before Abraham was I am claiming the name of God YHWH for Himself. What would the roman Christians have to gain by distorting Christianity in such a way why would they say Jesus is God. If God protects the quran and the bible was also written by God why doesn't he or did |He protect the |Bible. When the quran specifically says the words of God cannot be Changed.

It is not will be but am a verb. This is the name of God |God is not saying He is singular names have neither plurality or singular they are what we are identified as. In neither case do |You prove Your point because Jesus claims this name of God for Himself as Does the Father and The Spirit. They are all YHWH and They are all one echad composite oneness Deuteronomy after saying God three times it says God is Echad a composite untiy. study it up it's their you cannot get arounf it it is in the old testament newtestament nature and even the quran has God calling himself We. Why do you deny so much evidence in front of your face if the bible had made it to me in some far away land and I could read it I would conclude God is more then One person yet He is one composite entity.     

Its funny where do you get the idea that my bible was written in the 4'th century if that were true,you have a big problem on your hand because the angel jabriel told your prophet that the injuils were the word of God to the Christians which they certainly would not be if they had fraudulent writers. who lived 400 years after Christ. Was jabriel lying or is mohamed lying is God lying? Be careful what you say it seems you are willing to accept just about anything to ignore the truth taught in the bible. Keep in mind, you have to call your religion a lie if you say mine is a lie. Nevertheless, your statements are not true the new testament has over 15,000 peices and whole copies we call them manuscripts and they all have different dates because they are all copies of what was original we don't have the originals. But we do have peices of manuscripts that date to the early first century  meaning they were written before that. It doesn't matter that they are not all together they are not supposed to be one book but many books collected as Gods revealed word over generations. Each one book is Gods word individually. Early church fathers quote extensively from all the books we have in our Bible well before the New Testament was I guess in your mind officially gathered. |But the Christians were being killed for there beliefs its hard to keep all the books from destruction when every one hates you and wants to kill you and eradicate your beliefs from earth. Its a miracle our religion made it let alone our books. God is showing you just how powerful He is. None of what you say in this section is true where did you get this information. Any council in the 4th century does not mean that because the books were gathered in this century they were written in this century. Roman scribes could have wrote the new testament that was their job to copy information exactly as written scribes don't write their own stories they make copies of older documents. Not sure the person who told you this knew what he was talking about.
I'm not sure what you mean by saying that the stories in the bible are not original but if you mean they retell alot of the same stories about Jesus'life thats true they are eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life few of the stories in the gospels are unique to one gospel they are telling what happened to Jesus during his life of course they are going to overlap. However, if you mean they are not trustworthy then you are wrong the bible is most trustworthy book in allantiquity it has the most copies fromall different ages so we can teel precisely what was written the margin of error is less than 2 % and the 2 % that don't match are all misspellings or spelling variations. among all the disputed verses of the bible that don't match 100% none of these verses change any teaching of the new testament. This is way better than any book in antiquity. whose margin of error is 15 to 40 persent and with fewer than 1000 copies. Thebibleis trustworthy.

The quote you give me is way off it does not even deal with the Fact that Calls Him self Gods Plural majesty is things like we and us but it never extended to a king calling himself men or people saying that king is a manly men. Nevertheless I will respond that the writer does mention the men are created in God's image they can create and are  rulers I mentioned this somewhere too remember I also said we know what is right and are self aware. These are the characteristics men are created with which are originally God's. I don't understand the point the author is trying to make because All of the people who are God The Father The Son And The Holy Spirit Have these Characteristics. The bible says That God is a composite unity they share everything yet they are not the same person. We Christians believe that We were created in the image of Elohim that of Gods plural we share their image they all have that image they are all creative they all rule they all are self aware and know what is right. The verse that is quoted says itself we are made in the image of Gods elohim plural. I can only assume the person doesn't write it to mislead others. or he is so blind he can't see what is clearly in front of his face. I believe all three have image. as explained above.

plural endings mean just that plural. perhaps you should consider that arabs and jews are the ones with the problems after all the bible does say that Jesus was going to be rejected by His people many times so that the gentiles could be saved. Dont trust jews or scholars which can lie and misinterperet to fit what they believe over God

Offline shabeer_hassan

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2014, 02:33:13 AM »

Offline shabeer_hassan

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2014, 02:43:20 AM »

Offline The Comforter

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2014, 04:50:11 PM »
personally i've never found sense in the Trinity doctrine and neither do many Christians, how exactly does God become his own Son and Father at the same time? and if you believe he is ONE God then why in the World do you even need the Trinity for that? Judaism and Islam did really fine without the Trinity, this doctrine only arises doubts on weather Christianity should be included in the " Monotheism Team "  or exiled as a Polytheist Religion.

Offline theydontreadthebible

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Re: Trinity
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2015, 05:02:15 PM »
Why don't we believe in trinity?

easy, for one doesn't even need to open teh quran..

deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
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1 timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Numbers 23:19
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Clearly god is no man, and jesus is a man.
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Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Son of man is lower in degree than the Holy spirit, which is lower in degree than God.

How can these all be 1 when they are clearly not EQUAL?


 

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