Answering Christianity Research Center

I would like the first verse to be explained to be 9:29. It bothers me because I can't get it's meaning right. Am I suppose to fight, cause it doesn't make sense considering that other verses speaks of peace, speak in ways which are better, if you kill a person, it would be as if you kill the whole of mankind, etc.

What is it's context? When was it revealed? Why was it revealed?

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger nor, acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. (29)"

Is there a proper translation? It could be that there is an error in translation.

Just like the translation on the verse(4:34) which speaks about wife-beating.(The verse actually speaks about tapping since there is a hadith on tayamum which uses the same word in this verse)

Sura 4 - An-Nisa (MADINA) : Verse 34
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their, beds (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).
Translation : Eng-Yusuf Ali

You can read this article, dealing with 9:29 at http://muslim-responses.com/Fighting_those_who_dont_Believe_/Fighting_those_who_dont_Believe_

Quote from Final Overture: Those cursings might be metaphorical, as we find some similar in Job 3:1-3. It serves as an expression of big and great sorrow.

Thank you for your reply but:

 The more I look into the explanation of this verse the more I am convinced of my suggestion, you will see my comments soon.

 A curse is a curse, I have never heard of a metaphorical curse and Job never cursed anybody, not to mention himself. Real Prophets don’t curse the day they are born.

Regards,

Look - Jeremiah 9:11 “I will make Jerusalem a heap of ruins,
    a haunt of jackals;
and I will lay waste the towns of Judah
    so no one can live there.”

Jeremiah 21:10 I have determined to do this city harm and not good, declares the Lord. It will be given into the hands of the king of Babylon, and he will destroy it with fire.
Or Jeremiah 34:2 ‘This is what the Lord says: I am about to give this city into the hands of the king of Babylon, and he will burn it down.
And people try to kill Jeremiah:
Jeremiah 18:18 " They said, “Come, let’s make plans against Jeremiah; for the teaching of the law by the priest will not cease, nor will counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophets. So come, let’s attack him with our tongues and pay no attention to anything he says.”"

Jeremiah was in such despair, the city, which he loves, Jerusalem, will be destroyed and his brothers will suffer and die. That's why he curses the day when he was born, because then this things won't happen.

Quote from:  Final Overture

Quote

you assume that he referred to prophecies , while me as a Muslim , don't believe that Jesus the prophet would refer to false ,imaginary prophecies.
even if we suppose he really refereed to prophecies, he according to the new testament ,referred to the prophecies say he will be killed and resurrected.

Where?

If you mean, where he said that his death and resurrection are predicted in the old testament ,I mentioned that several times in my previous posts.
if you mean, where is such prophecies ,then go ask the Jesus of the new testament ,he didn't specify any ....  at any rate the writer of Acts 2:29 did the job,and distorting  Psalm 16:8 ,forcing it into a so called prophecy.
just as you distorted Psalms into prophecies ...

Quote from:  Final Overture

The verb itself has a lot meanings, harden, stiffen, crucify, etc

The verb Salaba has only one previously mentioned meaning , when the object is a human. go ask any Arab.

Quote

Quote from:  Final Overture

That video is made by Hebrew-knowing Muslims, he says there is a mistranslation there. So why not?

what mistranslation? what are you talking about?!

Quote from:  Final Overture

They didn't kill him in general, they didn't crucify him specifically. Crucifixion is the foundation of Christianity, so why not mention it?

again,what are you talking about?!

I know, there aren't such prophecies, i only added Hosea 6, because its the only chapter he could likely refer to.

Quote from:  Final Overture

That video is made by Hebrew-knowing Muslims, he says there is a mistranslation there. So why not?

what mistranslation? what are you talking about?!

Quote from:  Final Overture

They didn't kill him in general, they didn't crucify him specifically. Crucifixion is the foundation of Christianity, so why not mention it?

again,what are you talking about?!

[/quote] Are you really serious with this? Don't you see what I quoted?





Okay, thank you Egyptian for this conversation. I guess, I'll do some more study and research on this topic, later, InshaAllah. 

Quote from: Final Overture on September 06, 2012, 10:14:24 AM

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so what? Maybe Ellen White was also a descendant of Abraham, who knows.

Prove.

Ellen White was certainly a descendant of Adam.

Did Ellen White live among pagans? And how does it come that there are so many atheists in America? Did Ellen White change whole America into worshipping God alone?[/quote]

She made her contribution. All prophets are different, but equal. Did Jesus live among pagans?

Muhammad is sent for the whole mankind.

Ellen White too.

Remember her false prophecies? Remember Harold Camping?

what is his connection with Ellen White?
[/quote]
You are too his descendant. Are you a prophet?
Jesus - mostly yea.
For whole? Did she say this?
Connection? False prophecies.
Allah gave Muhammad a victory over the pagans.

Quote from: Final Overture on September 05, 2012, 09:43:06 AM

Quote from: mokko on September 05, 2012, 08:05:35 AM

Quote from: Final Overture on September 05, 2012, 08:03:31 AM

Muhammad is the last prophet.

arguments?

"Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing." (Qur'an 33:40)

1. what are the reasons that make you accept Muhammad and reject White, rather than the other way? do you have any?

Consider all the arguments that Muslims usually give to Christians, in order to make them accept Muhammad, and apply them to the case of Ellen White.

2. By the way, your "ijtihad" is very unclear. See also: "And for every Ummah (a community or a nation), there is a Messenger; when their Messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged. (Qur'ân 10:47)"

1. Muhammad wasn't just a mere man, he was a descendant of Abraham.
2. He preached the monotheism, the belief in One God.
3. «During the 23-year period of his prophethood, he changed the entire Arabian Peninsula from paganism to worship of the one true God, from tribal warfare to national unity, from anarchy to disciplined living, from barbarism to the highest standard of moral excellence. At the time of his death most inhabitants of Arabia and the southern regions of Iraq and Palestine had voluntarily embraced Islam. To posterity he left a creed of pure monotheism that included comprehensive legislation based on a balanced system of moral values.» (Clear your doubts about Islam, Sahih International)
4. After the start of his Prophethood, a lot of people started believing in One God and stopped worshipping idols.

Quote from:  Final Overture

From... Killing you?

IF you say so,then you have made a qualifier to a general case.

the verse tells :
1- Jesus performed miracles.
2- they accused him of magic .
3- God restrained them.

using the verb (kafaftu) in the verse ,is automatically (by linguistic,contextual necessity) denotes they were prevented from doing any harm,evil,violence.
actually harm comes in several forms , they could have been restrained from beating ,stoning or jailing him , not merely killing him,  the fact there is no qualifier in the verse.
now, even if we for the sake of argument narrow the meaning of restrain to a specific act of violence , still verse 4:157 teaches us where is our limit should be , as you may conjecture whatever might happened to Jesus ,but when it comes to putting him on the cross,that is where is your limit of imagination should stops ... the Qur'an simply,clearly says he wasn't put on the cross.

4:157"they neither killed him NOR CRUCIFIED him"

Quote from:  Final Overture

The point which I made, that even according to these Gospels, we can't say that he will die, since he referred to the prophecies, which say that he won't die. Why would Jesus refer to them in any way? Let this cup be taken from me?

you assume that he referred to prophecies , while me as a Muslim , don't believe that Jesus the prophet would refer to false ,imaginary prophecies.
even if we suppose he really refereed to prophecies, he according to the new testament ,referred to the prophecies say he will be killed and resurrected.

Quote from:  Final Overture

And the word crucify means to put to death.

that is a conjecture till you provide ARABIC dictionary that says the verb (Salaba aka to put on a cross) means (to put to death)......

Even if you have a hundred dictionaries that explain what (crucify) mean in English, all irrelevant and won't help your case with what the verb (Salaba ) means in Arabic.

The Quran originally in Arabic , so no one should bother what the English word could mean.

Quote from:  Final Overture

Well, I expected you to say that, so watch:

Note . I'm not fond of watching videos , so please don't post videos here in our discussion , I don't like someone answering my simple point with a full lecture that may include irrelevant stuff....
so please if you have something to say then write it (just as I always write to you) , and take all your time .

IF you say so,then you have made a qualifier to a general case.

the verse tells :
1- Jesus performed miracles.
2- they accused him of magic .
3- God restrained them.

using the verb (kafaftu) in the verse ,is automatically (by linguistic,contextual necessity) denotes they were prevented from doing any harm,evil,violence.
actually harm comes in several forms , they could have been restrained from beating ,stoning or jailing him , not merely killing him,  the fact there is no qualifier in the verse.

Not really.

you assume that he referred to prophecies , while me as a Muslim , don't believe that Jesus the prophet would refer to false ,imaginary prophecies.
even if we suppose he really refereed to prophecies, he according to the new testament ,referred to the prophecies say he will be killed and resurrected.

Where?

said only "they didn't kill him " then the door is open for speculations (which remain speculations till ether supported by the Qur'an or historical eyewitnesses testimony) ...

but the verse adds to "killed" the verb "crucify" ,to say that not only they didn't kill him but also didn't bound his stretched hands and feet aka crucified him ...

They didn't kill him in general, they didn't crucify him specifically. Crucifixion is the foundation of Christianity, so why not mention it?

Bro  Final Overture conjectured a meanng for the word (salaba) ,so my duty now to quote the online Arabic dictionaries to show the true meaning of the verb (salaba)

The verb itself has a lot meanings, harden, stiffen, crucify, etc

Note . I'm not fond of watching videos , so please don't post videos here in our discussion , I don't like someone answering my simple point with a full lecture that may include irrelevant stuff....
so please if you have something to say then write it (just as I always write to you) , and take all your time .

That video is made by Hebrew-knowing Muslims, he says there is a mistranslation there. So why not?

Muhammad is the last prophet.