Author Topic: Archbishop Voscan Erewanci (1614-1674) put Prophet's Ahmad name in Isaiah 42:10  (Read 5991 times)

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Offline Idris

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« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 02:47:47 pm by Idris »

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Ramadan mubarak to all muslims, best wishes :)

Salamun Aleykum
 

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Salam Aleykom

Please attention eveyone!
 
I have found very valuable testimony in the form of an extremely rare Bibles from (Amsterdam, 1666 edition) and (Venice: 1733 edition), which probably mentions the nameAhmad in the passage of Isaiah 42:10 ! How I know that ? While reading the book ’’Izharu el'Haqq’’, I came across at intriguing informations. A well known scholar Rahmatu Allah Al-Hindi, qoutes in his book ‘’Truth Revelead’’ Haydar Al-Qurashee, who wrote “that the Armenian priest Auskan translated the Book of Isaiah into the Armenian language in the year 1666, and it was printed in 1733 by Anthony Portolly press. In this translation, in chapter 42 it was written:

Sing to the LORD a new song, the mark of his authority is in his back, and his name is Ahmad”.

Now if you look at the passage of Isaiah 42:10, you will note that it begins exatly in the same way as the citation from above:
 
‘’Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise from the ends of the earth, you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it, you islands, and all who live in them.’’

It wasn’t easy to find such version of armenian Bible (since the exatly name of it's author is Voscan Yerevantsi/Erewanc’i, not Auscan, and publisher of the second edition is Anton Bortoli, not Anthony Portolly) but finaly in Armenian Library under section "rare and ancient books" I have found those two precious early Bibles edition. The first edition was printed by Voscan himself in Amsterdam in the year 1666 and it is said to be based on the earlier armenian version made by Mesrop Mashtots in the fifth century !!! (A. Pisowicz, Książka ormiańska, „Biuletyn Ormiańskiego Towarzystwa Kulturowego’’, 2003, no 32-33, p. 25). So it is a copy of the oldest testimony of the Bible ever written in Armenian language ! It is called a Royal one amongst all Armenian Bibles since, it was faithfuly translated from original sources (Septuagint...and possibly from Hebrew scrolls). Below, the link to the first edition that according to Melikian Colletion Company ‘’includes an alphabetical glossary of hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek words and names occuring in the Bible.’’ (helpful to find faster the name Ahmad ?):

http://greenstone.flib.sci.am/gsdl/collect/armenian/Books/astvacashunch_index.html

http://greenstone.flib.sci.am/gsdl/cgi-bin/library.cgi?e=q-01000-00---off-0armenian-armbook%2carmenian%2chajgirqn%2chaygirq%2cNo_Date_Books%2cazgayinZz-foreign-01-1----0-10-0---0---0direct-10-TX--4-------0-1l--11-en-50---20-about-Bible+1733--00-3-1-00-0--4--0--0-0-11-10-0utfZz-8-00&a=d&c=armenian&srp=2&srn=4&cl=search&d=HASH0173a618d90b9a09088f1b12

The second one is known as Astuacasunc‘ [Bible] printed by Mxit‘ar Sebastac‘i in Venezia: Anton Bortoli press 1733:

http://greenstone.flib.sci.am/gsdl/collect/armenian/Books/astvacashunch1733_index.html

http://greenstone.flib.sci.am/gsdl/cgi-bin/library.cgi?e=q-01000-00---off-0armenian-armbook%2carmenian%2chajgirqn%2chaygirq%2cNo_Date_Books%2cazgayinZz-foreign-01-1----0-10-0---0---0direct-10-TX--4-------0-1l--11-en-50---20-about-Bible+1733--00-3-1-00-0--4--0--0-0-11-10-0utfZz-8-00&a=d&c=armenian&srp=0&srn=2&cl=search&d=HASH01c57c9db50ee36ebc0213d5

One must to look about the title Sefer Yeshayahu (The Book of Isaiah), page 548 ??? <--- not sure !

VERY IMPORTANT !!! It must be verified in armenian language ! Is there any one who know armenian language ? Please, ask your friends, anybody ! ARMENIAN TRANSLATOR NEEDED !!!
Cause if it is true (i.e. if Ahmad indeed exists right there, in one of those Armenian Bibles) I will be able to prove that the name Ahmad was mentioned twice in Isaiah 42 !!! First, in the beginning 42:1 (Here is My servant Ahmad) and further by repeating it again in 42:10 (...and his name is Ahmad) !!! I’ve already made a detailed research on this subject but one must to confirm that. Below, some of my research: 

The Apostolic Bible Polyglot (Charles Van der Pool) is a Greek-English Interlinear of the Greek Septuagint and New Testament coded to Strong’s numbers. The Apostolic Bible Polyglot in this case is quite interesting by rendering the passage as follows:

"Sing to the LORD a new hymn! Glorify his name from the uttermost part of the earth! O ones going down into the sea, and sailing it; the islands, and the ones dwelling in them."

NOTE: the greek word ὕμνος (humnos) analogically to ὑμνέω (humneo) means sing an hymn (praise unto = ar. tahmid = tasbih = nashid)! The phrase 'glorify his name' in other words is to 'praise his name' and in arabic literally goes like this: 'ahmad'u ismuh'u' (from hamd and ism). Similarly when we say e.g "(inni) ahmad'u Allah'a" i.e. "I praise or glorify Allah"= singular form. In plural we pronounced also as "(nahnu) n'ahmad'u Allah'a" but from the context of the passage it is clear that not 'we' but rather it is formulated in the sense of "O you, glorify the name of the Lord" meaning that someone is telling us here to "glorify his name", thus even in plural in arabic it reads verbally (in this case) as "(antum) ahmad'u Allah'a"! Now, when we change the order of the words 'ahmad'u ismuh'u', instead of "glorify his name", we will obtain "his name is glorious" i.e. in arabic 'ismuh'u ahmad' (i.e. his name is Ahmad) identically to that which was revealed in the Quran, sura 61:6! It is obvious that Jesus (Pbuh) qouted his name from the Old Testament, since Allah Almighty taught him about the wisdom of the Torah and the Gospel !!! Subhannallah, isn't amazing the arabic name Ahmad ?

Besides, the term καινός kainos (new) used in the LXX (Septuagint), sounds very similar to αἶνος ainos (praise). Did the copyist wrongly transcribed the words by confusing each other? (it is only my hypothesis but through my next analysis I came to the conclusion that it's not necessarily). Anyway, I can not figured out this puzzle yet. I don’t know what’s going on but something is wrong with this passage...and I think it is not a coincidence ! Notice that Spetuagint - on which is based The Apostolic Bible Polyglot - after the phraseSing to the Lord a new song mention his name (ὄνομα), not his praise. 
 
Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance Lexicon of the Bible:

G3686 - onoma (ὄνομα): From a presumed derivative of the base of G1097 (compare G3685); a “name” (literally or figuratively), (authority, character): - called, (+ sur-) name (-d).

It would make sense when you clothes the passage by taking and putting both words i.e. accepting praise (arabic root h-m-d) as Ahmad and his name (gr. onoma) as well as his authority and then as his name, and it explain why the archbishop Voscan translate the passage in such way in his 1666 armenian edition of the Bible. Well, you won't believe, but the strong proof is came from the previous word - before  - translated as Glorify actually means glorious !!! See for yourself: 

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Lexicon of the Bible:

G1392 - doxazō (δοξάζω): From G1391; to render (or esteem) glorious (in a wide application): - (make) glorify (-ious), full of (have) glory, honour, magnify.

SUBHANAALLAH ! THIS GREEK WORD δοξάζω REALLY MEANS AHMAD (i.e. gloriuos = praiseworthy) !!!!! <--- the same meaning ! Also if we suppose that the word uttermost is connected with: high = highly then it will be the most praised one or the highly praised one = AhmadThe translators of course have translate the meaning of this word, when in reality it is a proper name (ar. أحمد = the most praised one) ! The words "the mark of his authority is in his back" it is the well known mark or seal of the Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) which according to many hadith was in his back (i.e. between his shoulders!). It seems that the text had been manipulated (the christian editors of various dictionaries and lexicons doesn't want to see his name in their books?) and archbishop Voscan knew the true, secret meaning of Isaiah 42:10 ! It shouldn't be suprising, since according to some sources, the true meanings of many hebrew words are lost, and very few persons have knowledge (like Voscan Erewanci).

I hope that some person who is influence in Armenian will soon confirm and reinforce the evidence of the issue from the Armenian Bibles linked above. And realize my brothers that when we will prove explicitly his name in the Bible, it mean that all their charges against Islam and the Quran are automatically wrong and must be canceled (of course even without it they are a liars!). Logical way of thinking !
 
 

Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother Idris,

Ramadan Mubarak to you and to your family.  May Allah Almighty make this blessed month be a blessed one for you and your family.  Ameen.

Thank you for the valuable post, dear brother.  Very nice research, dear brother.  Keep up the great work!  May Allah Almighty bless you.  Ameen.

I will Insha'Allah add your material to the website.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 02:49:43 pm by Idris »

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Offline Sam663

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Salam Aleykom,

OK, and now seriously: there is no single person who can help to read the text in Armenian language? I mean of course those two Armenian edition of the Bible? I don't get it...do you even realize that we have a unique chance to show the name Ahmad explicitely written in christian Bible to this day? No muslim scholar was able to prove it from such sources! I know the number page where is located the passage of Isaiah 42:10 in those Armenian Bibles (which I linked above in my post). In the edition from the year 1733 it can be found in the page 751 (right side of the page) and in the edition from the year 1666 it can be found in the page 861. All I need is to get a confimation that the text read as: "Sing to the Lord a new song, the mark of his authority is in his back, and his name is Ahmad" !!! It can be download as PDF and one must to take a photoshot of that text fragment (in Adobe Reader) and then published. So please ask your friends to help us! URGENT MATTER!
 
 

Make a separate thread here and ask if anyone speaks Armenian:

http://www.islamicboard.com/
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 11:36:17 am by Sam663 »

Offline Sam663

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Or just ask if there is anyone who lives in Turkey.
 

Offline Idris

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Salam Aleykom,

OK, and now seriously: there is no single person who can help to read the text in Armenian language? I mean of course those two Armenian edition of the Bible? I don't get it...do you even realize that we have a unique chance to show the name Ahmad explicitely written in christian Bible to this day? No muslim scholar was able to prove it from such sources! I know the number page where is located the passage of Isaiah 42:10 in those Armenian Bibles (which I linked above in my post). In the edition from the year 1733 it can be found in the page 751 (right side of the page) and in the edition from the year 1666 it can be found in the page 861. All I need is to get a confimation that the text read as: "Sing to the Lord a new song, the mark of his authority is in his back, and his name is Ahmad" !!! It can be download as PDF and one must to take a photoshot of that text fragment (in Adobe Reader) and then published. So please ask your friends to help us! URGENT MATTER!
 
 

Make a separate thread here and ask if anyone speaks Armenian:

http://www.islamicboard.com/
 
 

Thank you Sam663
 

Offline Sam663

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Thank you Sam663
 
 

I have already made the thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134326287-urgent-help-translating-armenian-text.html

فرحان (Administrator)
I'll contact some brothers and let you know if they know anyone .



 
 

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« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 02:52:57 pm by Idris »

Offline Sam663

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Offline Tahmeed

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Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah,

 
I believe it can not be a coincidence, since Kab al'Ahbar (a learned Jewish Rabbi) said in one of narrations that he find in the Torah: "My servant Ahmad, Chosen one…" and this clearly refers to Isaiah 42:1 !!!
 
 

Can you pls give me the reference akhi? It's very important. I need that in FB!!!

Tahmeed
 

Offline Idris

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A very good suggestion.

http://www.irf.net/contactus.html
islam@irf.net

http://www.assimalhakeem.net/ask-a-question/

http://www.institutealislam.com/dr-jamal-badawi/
Your could submit any questions or inquiries at iif@geocities.com or contact Dr. Jamal Badawi personally at Jamal.Badawi@StMarys.ca
 
 

Thank you brother one more time. I will ask them insha'Allah ! May Allah bless you for your help.
 

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« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 02:53:36 pm by Idris »

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Offline QuranSearchCom

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As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Idris to all brothers and sisters,

Keep up the great research and work, dear brother Idris.  Your work is amazing!  Insha'Allah it will be read by many.  I will also link it to the website soon, Insha'Allah, along with other brothers' works as well that are in my que.

May Allah Almighty greatly bless you, akhi.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline Idris

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As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Idris to all brothers and sisters,

Keep up the great research and work, dear brother Idris.  Your work is amazing!  Insha'Allah it will be read by many.  I will also link it to the website soon, Insha'Allah, along with other brothers' works as well that are in my que.

May Allah Almighty greatly bless you, akhi.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah
 
 

Salam Aleykom, 

Thank you brother Osama, I knew that you will appreciate my efforts. Forgive me for my English grammar, since I live in Poland but I'm trying as much as I can. I love discovering new informations concerning prophecies of Muhammad (pbuh) in the Bible. I'm planning to publish insha'Allah probably the most detailed research ever made on this subject in polish language. Please, pray for me brother. Once I finish my work I'll share with you my newly findings (beforehand booking copyrights of course!) that's why I need your help :)
 

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« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 02:54:45 pm by Idris »

Offline QuranSearchCom

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As'salamu Alaikum dear everyone,

Here is the image that I have on my website regarding Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) prophetic name, Ahmed, being found in the Dead Sea Scrolls:



Click on the image to read the article and see the video-source of where it came from.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 02:55:22 pm by Idris »

Offline QuranSearchCom

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As'salamu Alaikum dear everyone,

Here is the image that I have on my website regarding Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) prophetic name, Ahmed, being found in the Dead Sea Scrolls:



Click on the image to read the article and see the video-source of where it came from.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah
 
 

Salam Aleykom, 

I'm afraid my brother, that the picture you've put in the web site does not include Ahmad. The highlighted word is atmokh, not ahmad as I show in the previous photos ! You should replace it with that one I’ve published since yours does not contain ahmad. One must be very carrefuly in hebrew...I've wached this video before brother but I get the feeling that author is actualy tries to force the reader to believe that ahmad exists in the Great Isaiah Scroll! With all due respect to him and his video but this is a nonsense. Explanation (Fred Miller):

Line 10: 3rd word Q = same word but a change in spelling. The word “tamak” (to hold up or support) imp 1cs in Q is 'ethmokah’ in M is 'etmak’.

M = masoretic text
Q = Qumran text

Remember the arabic book that I've found some day ? For detailed analysis of that word read the pages 45-48 from that book:

https://ia601605.us.archive.org/21/items/AlmasehNet/almaseh_net.pdf

That's why I ask you to help finding the source from the author of the book above. Only he know where to search...he didn't replied yet but we must try until he answer on our messages. (his email: alfaqeer974@yahoo.com). So write to him, try to find any contact with him, number phone etc. THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT NOW!
 
 

Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother Idris,

The brother who put together the video, which is in the link that the image takes you to, has pointed out the misspelling and has demonstrated how the original word is "Ahmed" and not "Etmak".  Click on the video and see it akhi.  It will help you, Insha'Allah.

May Allah Almighty bless you for all of your efforts and passion.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Idris,

Here is a small finding that I got from the PDF file and from some of the references that were given:



To the reader, please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm.  Feel free to add more questions.  This is like brother Idris said: Is "really important".

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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One thing is bothering me, namely from where brother Abdullah ben Isa El Abd' al'Jabbar takes the image in which Ahmad is mentioned...I'm talking about the image below (fourth photo from the top):
 
 

that image you post is an edited image of what the author assumed to be the true word. Its is actually etmokah being edited for purpose ofcomparison. He just deleted the last letter and adjust the shape of 2 more internal letters.
 

Offline Idris

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« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 02:56:02 pm by Idris »

Offline Idris

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One thing is bothering me, namely from where brother Abdullah ben Isa El Abd' al'Jabbar takes the image in which Ahmad is mentioned...I'm talking about the image below (fourth photo from the top):
 
 

that image you post is an edited image of what the author assumed to be the true word. Its is actually etmokah being edited for purpose of comparison. He just deleted the last letter and adjust the shape of 2 more internal letters.
 
 

Salam,

How do you know my brother, that this image has been edited? The author of that book, under the fourth photo said in arabic that "based on that 'etmak' was originally 'ahmad' in the previous copy of the scroll" or perhaps I'm wrong ? What made you think that it is an edited image ?
 

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there is only one source of dead sea scroll made available online (scroll A). http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#42:1

there is another scroll called Isaiah Dead Sea (scroll B). however copy B is not made available online due to is fragile condition.

 
Quote
this is the image used by the author, basically i 'print screen' the page from the link above and crop it to the exact same portion, if you look carefully at the images posted by the author the surrounding letters are the same
 only the portion e/t/m/o/k/h gets rearranged to e/h/m/a/d .
 

 

Offline Sam663

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Thank you brother one more time. I will ask them insha'Allah ! May Allah bless you for your help.
 
 


As a last resort, send that screenshot to them:
http://www.proz.com/translator-directory/?sp=directory&to=eng&from=arm&mode=view&specific=123

Standard rates are:
http://www.translatebyhumans.com/armenian-to-english-translation

 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 03:06:11 pm by Sam663 »

Offline Sam663

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As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Idris to all brothers and sisters,

Keep up the great research and work, dear brother Idris.  Your work is amazing!  Insha'Allah it will be read by many.  I will also link it to the website soon, Insha'Allah, along with other brothers' works as well that are in my que.

May Allah Almighty greatly bless you, akhi.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah
 
 


Walikum Asalaam

Just so you know, we first need to verify those claims!
The text is ancient and i don't seriously think that any average armenian would be able to translate it.
 

Offline Idris

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there is only one source of dead sea scroll made available online (scroll A). http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#42:1

there is another scroll called Isaiah Dead Sea (scroll B). however copy B is not made available online due to is fragile condition.

 
Quote
this is the image used by the author, basically i 'print screen' the page from the link above and crop it to the exact same portion, if you look carefully at the images posted by the author the surrounding letters are the same
 only the portion e/t/m/o/k/h gets rearranged to e/h/m/a/d .
 


 
 

It's true that the surrounding letters are the same but please note the distance between kaph and bet comparing the third and fourth photo from the top. The distances are not the same. You can clearly see...in the third photo there is more spaces between kaph and the next word (i.e. bo'behiri...) than that one from the fourth photo. Besides, why the author wrote under the fourth photo "Based ON THAT, 'etmak' was originally 'ahmad' in the previous copy [of the scroll]" implying that this is a photo from a distinct scroll and he used it as the last blow! I can not believe that he edited the image just like that. Brother Osama am I wrong ?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2015, 06:53:53 am by Idris »

Offline Idris

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Thank you brother one more time. I will ask them insha'Allah ! May Allah bless you for your help.
 
 


As a last resort, send that screenshot to them:
http://www.proz.com/translator-directory/?sp=directory&to=eng&from=arm&mode=view&specific=123

Standard rates are:
http://www.translatebyhumans.com/armenian-to-english-translation
 
 

Salam akhi, what screenshot you mean ?
 

Offline Idris

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As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Idris to all brothers and sisters,

Keep up the great research and work, dear brother Idris.  Your work is amazing!  Insha'Allah it will be read by many.  I will also link it to the website soon, Insha'Allah, along with other brothers' works as well that are in my que.

May Allah Almighty greatly bless you, akhi.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah
 
 


Walikum Asalaam

Just so you know, we first need to verify those claims!
The text is ancient and i don't seriously think that any average armenian would be able to translate it.
 
 

It is true we must to confirm that. I make some research upon Septuagint (analyzing the verse in greek script) and I'am almost sure that Ahmad was mentioned for the second time in Isaiah 42:10 ! The language of those Bibles is in classic Armenian, so I think people who spoke modern armenian are able to read it...but rather I'm afraid that due to the low quality of scanned pages can spoil it i.e. do not see clearly the shapes of individual letters, but you can say that it is possible to identify them
 

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It's true that the surrounding letters are the same but please note the distance between kaph and bet comparing the third and fourth photo from the top. The distances are not the same. You can clearly see...in the third photo there is more spaces between kaph and the next word (i.e. bo'behiri...) than that one from the fourth photo. Besides, why the author wrote under the fourth photo "Based on that, 'etmak' was originally 'ahmad' in the previous copy [of the scroll]" implying that this is a photo from a distinct scroll and he used it as the last blow! I can not believe that he edited the image just like that
 
 

-basically he is giving examples from other verses with letter L (lamed) below it in 1st and 2nd photo for comparison, to strengthen his theory that the original word was Ahmad. 
-in 3rd photo he underline the kaph and letter lamed below it.
-The bo' behiri that you mentioned was cut and paste closer in 4th photo (edited one).
-the 5th photo is simply the 4th photo except that he reduces the gap so that the letter dalet that he edited will be close to the lamed below it.

he theorizes that much more older copy may have look like photo 5. but Qumran scribes when writing it try to figure what was the word and rather wrote it as atmk.
 

Offline Tahmeed

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Assalamu alaikum akhi Idris,

You might find the following thing interesting, unless u know it already!

I downloaded an eastern armenian Bible from here http://www.holytrinity.am/media/AstvatcashunchArmenian0.pdf

I don't know if it's a modern or old version, but see the picture and translation of Isaiah 42:10.




Now Google Translate could do thus far:

Օրհնեցէ՛ք Տիրոշը նոր օրհներգութեամբ,
քանզի նրա իշխանութիւնը բարձունքներում է փառաբանւուն,

Praise Tiroshe (to Lord) new harp (I think it’s song);
For the highest authority in parabanwun (???),

եւ նրա անունը՝ երկրի ծագերից,
ծովերում նաւարկողներից,
կղզիներից ու նրանց բնակիչներից:

And its name, from the ends of the earth;
Nawarkoghnerits(?) seas,
Islands and their inhabitants.”

Notice the words 'Authority' and 'Name'.... you can't find them or anything similar in modern bibles or in the western Armenian bible.  And more surprisingly, both words exist in Voscan's Bible!


It means authority.



It means name.

Also, the phrase 'And its name' sounds like 'And his name..."

Perhaps the eastern bible is altered version of Voscan's Bible and it really contain the name Ahmad!
 

Offline Idris

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It's true that the surrounding letters are the same but please note the distance between kaph and bet comparing the third and fourth photo from the top. The distances are not the same. You can clearly see...in the third photo there is more spaces between kaph and the next word (i.e. bo'behiri...) than that one from the fourth photo. Besides, why the author wrote under the fourth photo "Based on that, 'etmak' was originally 'ahmad' in the previous copy [of the scroll]" implying that this is a photo from a distinct scroll and he used it as the last blow! I can not believe that he edited the image just like that
 
 

-basically he is giving examples from other verses with letter L (lamed) below it in 1st and 2nd photo for comparison, to strengthen his theory that the original word was Ahmad. 
-in 3rd photo he underline the kaph and letter lamed below it.
-The bo' behiri that you mentioned was cut and paste closer in 4th photo (edited one).
-the 5th photo is simply the 4th photo except that he reduces the gap so that the letter dalet that he edited will be close to the lamed below it.

he theorizes that much more older copy may have look like photo 5. but Qumran scribes when writing it try to figure what was the word and rather wrote it as atmk.
 
 

You may have right brother submit! So it seems actualy we do not posses a direct proof! The author however successfully proved - by presenting many examples of misreading and scribal mistakes comparing hebrew words in other places - that the passage of Isaiah 42:1 originally must have mentioned Ahmad !
 

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Offline Tahmeed

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Yeah I am sure this is the page, bro. The verse numbers are exactly as in the modern bible.



Zoomed.....


The fact that I am going to tell you know- I found out 4 days earlier. But I thought you would lose hope so I didn't say.

The name Ahmad doesn't exist, I am truly truly sorry for that.  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(



և անուն նորա ՛ի ծագաց երկրի
and his name in the ends of the earth (From Google T. = https://translate.google.com/?hl=en#hy/en/%D6%87%20%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B6%20%D5%B6%D5%B8%D6%80%D5%A1%20%D5%9B%D5%AB%20%D5%AE%D5%A1%D5%A3%D5%A1%D6%81%20%D5%A5%D6%80%D5%AF%D6%80%D5%AB)

But I couldn't figure out what is written in the line about authority, not in the eastern one, not in Voscan's one. So we can still prove his existence if we can prove it means 'the mark of authority in his back'.  This verse simply do not exist in modern bible, so something is fishy, cuz the rest is kept exactly the same but this verse- vanish! So pls dear bro don't lose hope.

Now why did I hid that fact for 4 days and why did I exposed that now? Because you just said something u didn't earlier! 

 
Quote
1666 and 1733 edition are a copy of an ancient Armenian translation of the Bible (5th century A.D) which was based on Septuagint.
 

How can you be so sure they are the exact copy???? I will post two images shortly and prove that even 1666 and 1733 versions differ a little! So I say the name 'Ahmad' is obviously in the 5th century bible, which u just mentioned! Perhaps Voscan changed it. Because the later verses speak of islands (Arabia is a peninsula), village of Kedar, deserts, making war with kafirs- everything just perfectly fits in! It is obviously Prophet Ahmad.

Keep up, don't give up- we can still do it!
Tahmeed
« Last Edit: July 19, 2015, 05:01:47 pm by Tahmeed »

Offline Tahmeed

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Now, see Isaiah 42:10 in the two editions.

1666


1733


The difference is silly, but it shows how can things change in 100 years, so they obviously changed since 5th century!
 

Offline Sam663

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Salam akhi, what screenshot you mean ?
 
 

Screenshot of those verses. 

The Bible was written in 1666, almost 350 years have elapsed since then. That is more than enough for the changes to take place in vowel systems and alphabets. Even if the name "Ahmed" is mentioned in Voscan Bible, why would a site like holytrinity would inlcude it in their version of the Bible?

You need an expert.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2015, 06:57:24 pm by Sam663 »

Offline Tahmeed

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Pokój z Tobą akhi Idris!

Read my previous two posts...

Now clear the thing 'The name Ahmad don't exist' from your mind!

How could I miss this?

I will now translate the verse including the previous word and see what happens!!!!!!!



փառաւորի , և անուն նորա ՛ի ծագաց երկրի
Meaning: glorify his name and the ends of the earth !!! (Google Translate here )

փառաւորի և անուն նորա ՛ի ծագաց երկրի
Meaning: and glorify his name in the ends of the earth !!! (Google Translate here )

Now remember your first post here!

 
Quote
"Sing to the LORD a new hymn! Glorify his name from the uttermost part of the earth! O ones going down into the sea, and sailing it; the islands, and the ones dwelling in them."

NOTE: the greek word ὕμνος (humnos) analogically to ὑμνέω (humneo) means sing an hymn (praise unto = ar. tahmid = tasbih = nashid)! The phrase 'glorify his name' in other words is to 'praise his name' and in arabic literally goes like this: 'ahmad'u ismuh'u' (from hamd and ism). Similarly when we say e.g "(inni) ahmad'u Allah'a" i.e. "I praise or glorify Allah"= singular form. It depends on the situation. In plural we pronounced also as "(nahnu) n'ahmad'u Allah'a" i.e. "We praise Allah" but from the context of the passage it is clear that not 'we' but rather it is formulated in the sense of "O you, glorify the name of the Lord" meaning that God Almighty is telling them here to "glorify his name", thus in plural in arabic it reads verbally (in this case) as "(antum) ahmad'u Allah'a"! Now, when we change the order of the words 'ahmad'u ismuh'u', instead of "glorify his name", we will obtain "his name is glorious" i.e. in arabic 'ismuh'u ahmad' (i.e. his name is Ahmad) identically to that which was revealed in the Quran, sura 61:6! It is obvious that Jesus (Pbuh) qouted his name from the Old Testament, since Allah Almighty taught him about the wisdom of the Torah and the Gospel !!! Subhannallah, isn't amazing the arabic name Ahmad ?
 

Yes it is akhi!

The coma after the word փառաւորի (Glorify) gives us an advantage than the greek verse you quoted. Because with the coma the verse makes more sense.

"Ahmad, his name in the ends of the earth."

I think the name Ahmad is really there! Alhamdulillah!!!

Tahmeed
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 01:51:00 am by Tahmeed »

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Offline Tahmeed

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Quote
Salam Aleykom,
 

Walaikumus salam akhi! Actually I first said 'Pokój z Tobą' haha ;D.

I tried to translate the arabic in Google Translate. It is not perfect, but it does the work. We really need bro Osama's help. (Bro Osama, if u determine to translate , pls translate this too  http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?t=205706 ;D ) 

"The most important modern discovery!
Came in the famous newspaper "Muslims" fifth page number 1229 on Monday, 1 March 1412, corresponding to 9 September 1991, under the title "Dr. Mohammad known Aldoualba- who was a member of Alhawwar- tells the story of the dialogue between Islam and Christianity, how Allam began and finished "- and what we will quote in this newspaper from the book d. Shawqi Abu Khalil "always dialogue .." p. 11. (Dar thought) with some Altsrv- that had been found in the Qumran caves north of the Dead Sea, a collection of manuscripts, among them we find the right travel the whole of Isaiah, while the publication in the Old Testament is part him.
In the travel discoverer of Isaiah's own words: "After Christ comes Arabic prophet of the country Faran- country Asmaeil- and the Jews to follow him, and his mark that if he survived the murder, it is the Prophet expected, because it escaped the sword on his neck, and come back to it after that ten thousand saint. "
Pope Paul VI has issued a fatwa in 1965, an important document, served as the official recognition of a Christian religion of Islam, for the first time, which stated: "All of the safe after day in God the Creator of the heavens and the earth, the Lord of Abraham, Moses, is the survivor with God, and in the integrity, At the forefront of Muslims. "
At the invitation official Islamic delegation to the Vatican traveled and met the cardinal Bimonelli Minister of State in the Vatican government regarding relations between Islam and Christianity, and began the dialogue despite the request "Israeli" ambassador in Rome to stop the dialogue, and after multiple meetings between a number of Muslim scholars and senior Vatican officials , stop"

Now that's interesting!

At first after reading your post, I thought this Voscan guy would be an honest one. But he turned out to be a fraud translator as usual!!!

Well for now akhi, I got one question to clarify. What does the verse mean by 'ends of the earth'? Does it mean Arabia, and was Arabia called 'End of the earth' before? Because you know, it is kind of the 'end of Asia'!

Or does the verse mean 'his name will reach the ends of the earth'- meaning Islam will reach every corner of the earth??

At last, jajakAllahu khair for your fascinating research!

Tahmeed

 

 
"Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith." (2:286)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 01:52:06 am by Tahmeed »

Offline QuranSearchCom

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As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,

May Allah Almighty bless you for your good research.  Keep up the great work!  I apologize for not being able to interact with you lately.  I am currently buried alive with work :(.  Once things clear up a little bit, then I will resume my Islamic activities and responsibilities on this website, Insha'Allah.  I will translate the texts that you requested, Insha'Allah.

Take care of yourselves,
Osama Abdallah

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« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 02:43:55 pm by Idris »

Offline Idris

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I formed a new interpretation of Isaiah 42:10 that may shock you but not now..I'am currently working on it  ;) of course Ahmad's name and the mark of his authority will not be removed but it is rather an inside semantic stratum of a specific using of some biblical words (I'am not sure if I explained rightly what I'am trying to say ;D) for now brothers and sisters I wish you all a pleasant reading from Poland :)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 03:13:24 am by Idris »

Offline Tahmeed

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Akhi Idris, Niech cię Bóg błogosławi !!!

Mash'Allah dear brother ! I have learned much more about prophesies about the Prophet (S) in your posts than I learned from any Islamic websites ;D. You really need to make your own blog and publish these things as soon as possible!

Again, JajakAllahu khair ;D
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 07:50:41 am by Tahmeed »

Offline Sam663

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So what is the greek word for 'mark'?
 

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« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 03:01:13 pm by Idris »

Offline Idris

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Akhi Idris, Niech cię Bóg błogosławi !!!

Mash'Allah dear brother ! I have learned much more about prophesies about the Prophet (S) in your posts than I learned from any Islamic websites ;D. You really need to make your own blog and publish these things as soon as possible!

Again, JajakAllahu khair ;D
 
 

Yes brother, I was thinking about it long time ago…You’re right, I need to open a blog and publish those precious informations ;D So...can I delete this post now ? :P don't try to use my findings haha ;D no I just kidding but make you sure that you citing my name in your references :'(
 

Offline Idris

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« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 02:45:10 pm by Idris »

Offline Tahmeed

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So...can I delete this post now ? :P don't try to use my findings haha ;D no I just kidding but make you sure that you citing my name in your references :'(
 
 

Hahaha  ;D ;D ;D Akhi, where would I use your findings? I am a kid :P, student ;D hehehe.

But yes, that's why I was saying 'Publish them as soon as possible', because someone else might use your findings and take the credit.

Peace....
 

Offline Idris

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Peace for everyone
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 02:46:41 pm by Idris »

Offline Idris

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Salam Aleykom,

Has anyone received an answer from the author of this arabic book ?:

http://www.almaseh.net/index.php/corner-book/3790.html

I mean the photo where he shows Ahmad name in hebrew Isaiah 42:1 (that one which brother submit said that it is an edited photo).



link: http://dc10.arabsh.com/i/01405/ia44u7absy13.jpg

Why the author still didn't answer on my question ? I've asked him aven in their fb fanpage but no answer. Man, it's not normal! I just want a confirmation that this photo is edited by him that's all. Please ask him again, and again until he gives some answer. (email: alfaqeer974@yahoo.com) or maybe he's got some new email adress, I do not know.
 

Offline Idris

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Re: Archbishop Voscan Erewanci (1614-1674) put Prophet's Ahmad name in Isaiah 42:10
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2015, 03:51:25 pm »
 

2261 views of my post ? No answer from that author of the arabic book regarding what kind of the photos he puted in ? Oh come one!
Why this gut put an email to contact him when he do not answer ? ? ?
 

Offline Idris

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Re: Archbishop Voscan Erewanci (1614-1674) put Prophet's Ahmad name in Isaiah 42:10
« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2015, 09:17:16 am »
 
Salam Aleykom brothers and sisters,

I would like to apologize for my unsightly behavior by removing valuable info of that topic. I should just add my name below each post, so that in the near future I'll be able to make a copyright for my book. For now, I will restore all of my posts which was removed, so you can read it and share it with your friends.
 

Offline Idris

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Re: Archbishop Voscan Erewanci (1614-1674) put Prophet's Ahmad name in Isaiah 42:10
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2015, 04:07:53 pm »
 
As-Salam Aleykom everyone,

I'am restoring now gradually my deleted posts.


In some very rare Bibles there is a testimony of Isaiah 42:10 which lead to it's secret interpretation that reveal the name of Ahmad. First Bible is from (Amsterdam, 1666 edition) and the second one is from (Venice: 1733 edition). An invaluable hint gives us a muslim historian Haydar Al-Qurayshee qoutes by a well known scholar named Rahmatu Allah Al-Hindi in his book ’Truth Revelead’’ (Izhar-ul-Haq: https://archive.org/details/IzharUlHaq-TruthRevealed4-VolumesmaulanaM.RahmatullahKairanvi), and it is said “that the Armenian priest Auskan translated the Book of Isaiah into the Armenian language in the year 1666, and it was printed in 1733 by Anthony Portolly press. In this translation, in chapter 42 it was written:

Sing to the LORD a new song, the mark of his authority is in his back, and his name is Ahmad”.

Now, it is interesting because if you look at the passage of Isaiah 42:10, you will notice that it begin exatly in the same way as the citation from above:

"Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise from the ends of the earth, you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it, you islands, and all who live in them."

In the Armenian Library under section "rare and ancient books" it can be found two early Bibles written in Armenian language. The first edition was printed by Voscan himself in the year 1666 and it has been said that it is based on earlier Armenian version made by Mesrop Mashtots in the 5th century (A. Pisowicz, Książka ormiańska, „Biuletyn Ormiańskiego Towarzystwa Kulturowego’’, 2003, No 32-33, p. 25)….and that one originally was based on Septuagint. Below, the link to the first edition and according to Melikian Colletion Company ''includes an alphabetical glossary of hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek words and names occuring in the Bible.'' (it is very helpful to find faster the name Ahmad):

http://greenstone.flib.sci.am/gsdl/collect/armenian/Books/astvacashunch_index.html

The second edition is known as Astuacasunc‘ [Bible] printed by Mxit‘ar Sebastac‘i in Venezia: Anton Bortoli press 1733:

http://greenstone.flib.sci.am/gsdl/collect/armenian/Books/astvacashunch1733_index.html

The Apostolic Bible Polyglot (Charles Van der Pool) is a Greek-English Interlinear of the Greek Septuagint and New Testament coded to Strong’s numbers. The Apostolic Bible Polyglot in this case is quite interesting by rendering the passage as follows:

"Sing to the LORD a new hymn! Glorify his name from the uttermost part of the earth! O ones going down into the sea, and sailing it; the islands, and the ones dwelling in them."


NOTE: the greek word ὕμνος (gr. humnos) analogically to ὑμνέω (gr. humneo) means sing an hymn (praise unto = ar. tahmid = tasbih = nashid)! The clause 'glorify his name' in other words is to 'praise his name' and in arabic literally goes like this: ''ahmad'u ismuh'u'' (from hamd and ism). Similarly when we say e.g "(inni) ahmad'u Allah'a" i.e. "I praise or I glorify Allah" = singular form (it depends on the case). In plural we pronounce also as "(nahnu) n'ahmad'u Allah'a" i.e. "We praise Allah" but from the context of Isaiah 42:10 it is clear however that not 'we' but rather it is formulated in the sense of "O you, glorify the name of the Lord" meaning that God Almighty is telling them here to "glorify his name" (of course according to Christians translation), thus in plural in arabic it reads verbally (in this case) as "(antum) ahmad'u ismuh'u"! Now, when we change the places of the words 'ahmad'u ismuh'u', instead of "glorify his name", we will obtain "his name is glorious" i.e. in arabic 'ismuh'u ahmad' (i.e. his name is Ahmad) identically to that which was revealed in the Quran 61:6! It is obvious that Jesus (Pbuh) qouted his name from the Old Testament, since Allah Almighty taught him the wisdom of the Torah and the Gospel (Quran 5:110) Subhanallah ! 

Brothers and sisters, it is not a coincidence ! Notice that Spetuagint - on which is based also The Apostolic Bible Polyglot - after the clause "Sing to the Lord a new song" mention his name (ὄνομα), not his praise!
 
Strong’s Dictionary of the words in the Greek Testament:

G3686 - onoma (ὄνομα): From a presumed derivative of the base of G1097 (compare G3685); a “name” (literally or figuratively), (authority, character): - called, (+ sur-) name (-d).

It would make sense when you clothes the passage by taking and putting both words i.e. accepting praise (arabic root h-m-d) as Ahmad and his name(gr. onoma) as well as his authority and then also as his name, and it explain why the archbishop Voscan translate the passage in such way in his 1666 Armenian edition of the Bible. The strong proof came from Strong, James Strong ! Namely, the word translated as glorify actually means alternativelyglorious. See for yourself: 

Strong’s Dictionary of the words in the Greek Testament:

G1392 - doxazō (δοξάζω): From G1391; to render (or esteem) glorious (in a wide application): - (make) glorify (-ious), full of (have) glory, honour, magnify.

To be continued insha'Allah...
 

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