« **on:** October 11, 2016, 08:54:29 am »

In a site, what is in arabic, says that Jeremiah 8:8 does not refer to an alteration of the Bible (Luke 2:52: GOD forgave Jesus' sins and was "charitable" with him). However, I cannot understand very well, because it is in arabic., Please, comebody could help me with this? Thank you so much:

https://www.linga.org/defense-articles/NzQ3Nw

« **Reply #1 on:** October 11, 2016, 09:12:54 am »

What they basically say is that the pen of scribes refers to their tongues. According to them, the scribes never altered the text, but said different things to it. They cite Psalms 45:1

my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Psalm%2045:1

So, they say that a PEN = TONGUE. So, when Jeremiah says that they altered it with pens, it refers that they altered it with their tongues.
Ples, is there some refutation?? Thanks.

« **Reply #4 on:** October 11, 2016, 03:21:11 pm »

As-Salam aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,

brother Sharif, read this article: http://unveiling-christianity.net/2016/04/27/examination-jeremiah-88/

Basically, the biblical text underwent physical alterations through the Jewish scribes, there is no doubt about it. Dr. Adam Clarke (1760-1832), was a highly respectful Methodist theologian and one of the most learned Biblical scholars. While commenting Jeremiah 8:8, he said:

"The deceitful pen of the scribes. They have written falsely, though they had the truth before them. It is too bold an assertion to say that "the Jews have never falsified the Sacred Oracles;" they have done it again and again. They have written falsities when they knew they were such." [A. Clarke, The Holy Bibles: containing the Old and New Testaments, with a commentary and critical notes, vol. 4 (New York: N. Bangs & J. Emory, 1826), p. 29.]

Many of modern Christian scholars will agree with Dr. Clarke's statement. It is a historical fact that the Old Testament has been corrupted in its earliest stage, and it was exhaustively proved more than 250 years ago by Dr. Benjamin Kennicott, a prominent Hebrew scholar who was able to trace the process of the Hebrew text transmission till the times of Ezra (ca. 450-420 B.C.).

Here are some excerpts from his latin work Dissertatio Generalis which till today is of great importance for Biblical scholarship:

Reference: J. C. Nott & G. R. Gliddon, Types of Mankind: Or Ethnological Researches, Based Upon the Ancient Monuments, Paintings, Sculptures, and Crania of Races, and Upon Their Natural, Geographical, Philological, and Biblical History. (Philadelphia: Lippincott, Grambo & Co., 1854), pp. 627-628.

I recommend you also to read the book Changes in Scripture: Rewriting and Interpreting Authoritative Traditions in the Second Temple Period by Hanne von Weissenberg, Juha Pakkala, Marko Marttila and Walter de Gruyter. (see the link below)

Link: https://books.google.pl/books?id=cafcNYVV7f8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Changes+in+scripture&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwio3qLpttPPAhXlF5oKHR5xBOAQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=Changes%20in%20scripture&f=false

The second section of the above book provides examples from the Hebrew Bible, Qumran and Septuagint on how the texts were changed, corrected, edited and interpreted. Comparative textual analysis shows beyond any doubt that the Bible we have today is not the same as it was B.C. or even in the first half millenium.

Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)

« **Reply #5 on:** October 11, 2016, 04:18:10 pm »

Salama aleikum,

here is an article dealing with question of reliability of the Hebrew Bible text:

August 17, 2011
Scholars: The Torah We Have Today Is Not The Torah Our Ancestors Had

Jerusalem scholars trace Bible's evolution
Hebrew University researchers have been quietly at work for 53 years on one of most ambitious projects attempted in biblical studies - publishing authoritative edition of Old Testament

Jerusalem (AP) - A dull-looking chart projected on the wall of a university office in Jerusalem displayed a revelation that would startle many readers of the Old Testament: The sacred text that people revered in the past was not the same one we study today.

An ancient version of one book has an extra phrase. Another appears to have been revised to retroactively insert a prophecy after the events happened.

Scholars in this out-of-the-way corner of the Hebrew University campus have been quietly at work for 53 years on one of the most ambitious projects attempted in biblical studies - publishing the authoritative edition of the Old Testament, also known as the Hebrew Bible, and tracking every single evolution of the text over centuries and millennia.

And it has evolved, despite deeply held beliefs to the contrary.

For many Jews and Christians, religion dictates that the words of the Bible in the original Hebrew are divine, unaltered and unalterable. For Orthodox Jews, the accuracy is considered so inviolable that if a synagogue's Torah scroll is found to have a minute error in a single letter, the entire scroll is unusable.

But the ongoing work of the academic detectives of the Bible Project, as their undertaking is known, shows that this text at the root of Judaism, Christianity and Islam was somewhat fluid for long periods of its history, and that its transmission through the ages was messier and more human than most of us imagine.

The project's scholars have been at work on their critical edition of the Hebrew Bible, a version intended mainly for the use of other scholars, since 1958.

"What we're doing here must be of interest for anyone interested in the Bible," said Michael Segal, the scholar who heads the project.

The sheer volume of information makes the Bible Project's version "the most comprehensive critical edition of the Hebrew Bible in existence at the present time," said David Marcus, a Bible scholar at the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York, who is not involved with the project.

But Segal and his colleagues toil in relative anonymity. Their undertaking is nearly unknown outside a circle of Bible experts numbering several hundred people at most, and a visitor asking directions to the Bible Project's office on the university campus will find that many members of the university's own staff have never heard of it.

Only 3 books published in 5 decades

This is an endeavor so meticulous, its pace so disconnected from that of the world outside, that in more than five decades of work the scholars have published a grand total of three of the Hebrew Bible's 24 books. (Christians count the same books differently, for a total of 39.) A fourth is due out during the upcoming academic year.

If the pace is maintained, the final product will be complete a little over 200 years from now. This is both a point of pride and a matter of some mild self-deprecation around the office.

Bible Project scholars have spent years combing through manuscripts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, Greek translations on papyrus from Egypt, a printed Bible from 1525 Venice, parchment books in handwritten Hebrew, the Samaritan Torah, and scrolls in Aramaic and Latin. The last member of the original team died last year at age 90.

The scholars note where the text we have now differs from older versions - differences that are evidence of the inevitable textual hiccups, scribal errors and other human fingerprints that became part of the Bible as it was passed on, orally and in writing.

A Microsoft Excel chart projected on one wall on a recent Sunday showed variations in a single phrase from the Book of Malachi, a prophet.

The verse in question, from the text we know today, makes reference to "those who swear falsely." The scholars have found that in quotes from rabbinic writings around the 5th century A.D., the phrase was longer: "those who swear falsely in my name."

In another example, this one from the Book of Deuteronomy, a passage referring to commandments given by God "to you" once read "to us," a significant change in meaning.

Other differences are more striking.

The Book of Jeremiah is now one-seventh longer than the one that appears in some of the 2,000-year-old manuscripts known as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Some verses, including ones containing a prophecy about the seizure and return of Temple implements by Babylonian soldiers, appear to have been added after the events happened.

The year the Bible Project began, 1958, was the year a priceless Hebrew Bible manuscript arrived in Jerusalem after it was smuggled out of Aleppo, Syria, by a Jewish cheese merchant who hid it in his washing machine. This was the 1,100-year-old Aleppo Codex, considered the oldest and most accurate version of the complete biblical text in Hebrew.

The Bible Project's version of the core text - the one to which the others are compared - is based on this manuscript. Other critical editions of the Bible, such as one currently being prepared in Stuttgart, Germany, are based on a slightly newer manuscript held in St. Petersburg, Russia.

Considering that the nature of their work would be considered controversial, if not offensive, by many religious people, it is perhaps surprising that most of the project's scholars are themselves Orthodox Jews.

"A believing Jew claims that the source of the Bible is prophecy," said the project's bearded academic secretary, Rafael Zer. "But as soon as the words are given to human beings - with God's agreement, and at his initiative - the holiness of the biblical text remains, even if mistakes are made when the text is passed on."

Taken from: http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/08/the-tanakh-as-it-was-the-evolution-and-change-of-the-hebrew-bible-456.html

Scholars seek Hebrew Bible's original text — but was there one?
By Anthony Weiss - May 13, 2014 4:39pm

The text of today's Torah scrolls differs from the versions of the biblical books that existed millennia ago. (Konstantin Goldenberg/Shutterstock)

LOS ANGELES (JTA) — According to Jewish tradition, the Torah is so sacred that even a single error made on a single letter renders the entire scroll unusable.

And yet the Hebrew Bible — including the Torah, its first five books — is riddled with corruptions and alterations that have accrued and been passed down over the millennia.

Read the whole article: http://www.jta.org/2014/05/13/news-opinion/united-states/scholars-seek-hebrew-bibles-original-text-but-was-there-one.

Early rabbinic sources, from around 200 CE, "mention several passages of Scripture in which the conclusion is inevitable that the ancient reading must have differed from that of the present text [...] Rabbi Simon ben Pazzi (third century) calls these readings "emendations of the Scribes" (tikkune Soferim; Midrash Genesis Rabbah xlix. 7), assuming that the Scribes actually made the changes. [The Jewish Encyclopedia, I. Singer, Ph.D., C. Adler, Ph.D. [General Editors], vol. 8 (NY: KTAV Publishing House, Inc., 1901), p. 366, entry: Masorah]

Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)

« **Reply #6 on:** October 11, 2016, 04:32:07 pm »

Zohar is for kabbalists , some kind of magix and control, those who uses it are using it to play with the balances to be the top of the world, and to absorb the re-actions of the big sins they are making, they are now studying what is the re-action for any action they will make and make a ready plan in how to absorb it....

jews( hood ) in the Quran is an adjective not a tribe or a race... those people who make big sins and repent in the critical time or situation and tries to absorb the re-actions of their actions to stay alive. sabaeans is an adjective also for who leaves their fathers religion. christians ( nasara ) the supporters, hopefully in the cause of the only God.

dear brother IDRIS you are really IDRIS XD

« **Reply #7 on:** October 11, 2016, 08:34:30 pm »

As-Salam aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,

Yes brother khdrb, I know that Zohar is a kabbalistic work, but it contains a commentary to the Torah which according to Rabbis was written in intention to reveal the hidden meaning of the verses. What is interesting is that the same author of this book Zohar, i.e. Rabbi Simeon bar Yohai (80-160 A.D.) wrote a book called nistarot (secrets) and he described in it the apocalyptic vision he had in a cave, according to which God will arise a prophet among the Ishmaelites, who will bring Kingdom of God, and his succesors will deliver Israelites from the wicked kingdom of Edomites (Romans). Speaking honestly, for me it will be not suprising if Rabbi Simeon bar Yohai would have mentioned prophetical names Ahmad and Mohammed in his esoterical commentary to the Torah. However at the same time, I 'am fully aware that the Jews will NEVER admit the truth, as I've said in one of my earlier posts, they would rather die that to tell you about Mohammed in their scriptures, especially if it is a pre-Islamic document!

Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)

« **Reply #8 on:** October 13, 2016, 08:53:07 am »

Christians claim that Jews falsify certain words and rewrote them hence the production of Masoretic texts. That means Christians agree to the fact that Jews falsify their own texts

« **Reply #9 on:** October 26, 2016, 08:33:29 pm »

As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,

According to the Bible, are the Jews, in general, trustworthy in keeping the Holy Words of Allah Almighty unaltered? Read the following:

Psalm 25:3
3 No one who hopes in you will ever be put to shame, but shame will come on those who are treacherous without cause.

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

The Jews are the ultimate liars and fabricators?

Now read what the Bible says about the Israelites:

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+48%3A8&version=KJ21

Isaiah 48:8 (KJ21)
8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not, yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened; for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

Isaiah 48:1-8 (KJ21)
1 "Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel.....
......
8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not,
yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened; for
I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously
and wast called a transgressor from the womb. (other translations below say birth)

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+48%3A8&version=ASV

Isaiah 48:8 (ASV)
8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from of old thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou didst deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+48%3A8&version=AMP

Isaiah 48:8 (AMP)
8 "You have not heard, you have not known;
Even from long ago your ear has not been open.
For I [the Lord] knew that you [Israel] would act very treacherously;
You have been called a transgressor and a rebel from birth.

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+48%3A8&version=CEB

Isaiah 48:1-8 (CEB)
1 Listen to this, house of Jacob,
who are known by the name of Israel,
descendants of Judah,
who swear by the Lord's name
and invoke Israel's God dishonestly and unrighteously.
.......
8 You (House of Jacob) haven't heard, nor have you known;
as in ages past your ears are closed,
because I knew what a traitor you were;
you were known as a rebel from birth.

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+48%3A8&version=DARBY

Isaiah 48:8 (DARBY)
8 Yea, thou heardest not, yea, thou knewest not, yea, from of old thine ear was not opened; for I knew that thou wouldest ever deal treacherously, and thou wast called a transgressor from the womb.

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+48%3A8&version=KJV

Isaiah 48:8 (KJV)
8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+48%3A8&version=NIV

Isaiah 48:8 (NIV)
8 You have neither heard nor understood;
from of old your ears have not been open.
Well do I know how treacherous you are;
you were called a rebel from birth.

Meaning of Treacherous:

"guilty of or involving betrayal or deception."

SOURCE: www.google.com/search?q=Treacherous+meaning

Again, remember the two verses above:

Psalm 25:3
3 No one who hopes in you will ever be put to shame, but shame will come on those who are treacherous without cause.

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

Also remember that the Jews' history in the Bible is corrupt, and it is not the Word of GOD Almighty:

www.answering-christianity.com/deuteronomy4_2.htm

Deuteronomy 4:2

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.

From their Essence and Birth, they were Liars!

Not trying to sound like a complete anti-Jews here, but it is quite clear that even their Bible declares them to be complete liars and deceivers EVEN FROM THE TIME OF THEIR BIRTH. This clearly supports the Glorious Quran's Claim about them:

"Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-79)"

"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God (Luke 2:52: GOD forgave Jesus' sins and was "charitable" with him). For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment. (The Noble Quran, 5:41)"

"But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for God loveth those who are kind. (The Noble Quran, 5:13)"

So which parts of the old Scriptures are closest to the Truth? Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/deuteronomy4_2.htm

Jeremiah 8:8 came much later in the OT!

Jeremiah 8:8 speaks about the writing of the scribes turning GOD Almighty's Law into a lie. It is speaking about actual writings being false that are attributed to GOD Almighty:

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+8%3A8&version=NIV

Jeremiah 8:8 (NIV)

8 "‘How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+8%3A8&version=NRSV

Jeremiah 8:8 (NRSV)
8 How can you say, "We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?

And since the Bible is so full of contradictions, fictions and fables according to its own theologians, and even contains conflicts and fights between the disciples, then it is clear that much of it is false:

www.answering-christianity.com/authors_gospels.htm

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

« **Reply #10 on:** October 27, 2016, 10:09:03 am »

As-Salamu aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,

Good points brother Osama, also the Book of Jubilees is another one of the best historical proofs that the Bible was corrupted! In chapter 1, verse 12 we read:

"And I will send witnesses unto them, that I may witness against them, but they will not hear, and will slay the witnesses also, and they will persecute those who seek the law, and they will abrogate and change everything so as to work evil before My eyes." (Jubilees 1:12)

As also Dr. Kennicott after making an extensive historical research concluded that "In most ancient times, the Hebrew text was corrupt" (see the big image in my previous post here)

Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)

« **Reply #11 on:** October 27, 2016, 03:09:19 pm »

Jazaka Allah Khayr dear brother Idris. Great points and research from you akhi as always. Keep up the great work!

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Sharif

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